Next set of questions are about items.
1. How do consumable items on the character sheet work? Does the Cutter always have one rage essence vial per score? Ditto for the Slide’s trance powder and the Lurk’s silence potion.
2. Spiritbane charm costs 0 load and is on almost all the playbooks. Does that mean everyone other than the Leech just always has a spiritbane charm? Why does it have a box to check off then, since it doesn’t even have a concrete mechanical effect?
3. How do crafted items interact with the Items/Load system? What about crafted alchemical items with limited uses? How do those interact with, say, the Leech’s bandolier? What about items that are acquired assets?
Thanks in advance!
For “1”, I believe it says somewhere in the gear rules that scoundrels can replenish all their consumables each downtime, without needing to do anything special.
1. That’s the way I’ve always played it. If they want more they can acquire an asset.
2. My go-to answer for this sort of thing is “it has an effect on the fiction, but that’s not insignificant.” More specifically, I’ve allowed people to use spiritbane charms as an effective method for preventing possession by ghosts, but that’s just my game. Others may choose to handle them differently.
3. I would be fine with the GM setting a Load cost and allowing the player to stipulate to using that number of slots to carry the item in question. The custom sheets I did have space at the bottom to write in such items.
3. It should be mentioned that the Leech’s bandolier is special:
“When you employ an alchemical or bomb from a bandolier, choose one from the list at right (or one of your custom-made formulas).”
I.e. whenever your leech has invented or crafted an alchemical or bomb, it automatically becomes part of their bandolier (modulo a sanity check, e.g. nothing with the rare drawback if you don’t have a source for the ingredients etc) and they can draw it from the bandolier in place of one of the standard formulae, plus it refills automatically in downtime. Note that this only works for alchemicals and bombs, not arbitrary crafted items.
Jakob Oesinghaus I believe that you’d still need to craft it, otherwise the Leech becomes infinitely OP by employing 6 custom alchemicals and bombs with very high tiers for 0 cost.
The way I read it is if you have that formula made, you can put it in the bandolier, making it cost 1/3 the load it normally would.
We might need clarification from someone like John Harper on this one, because that sounds super powerful to me.
1. One per score unless they acquire asset.
2. It has no concrete effect because you and the players are meant to fill in the blanks. I assume Whisper and Leech dont have one cos they need to interact more with ghosts.
3. 1 load per item. 2 if its particularly big. Alchemicals and bombs can fill a bandolier slot if you are a Leech. If you acquire asset for a personal item, 1 or 2 load depending on size. If you grab something non-personal like a boat, no load cost, but you have a massive boat.
Antimatter I would definitely have them craft it once, the first time, but otherwise, it also says explicitly that the bandolier refills automatically at downtime (though it’s not 100% conclusive here if that also counts for the custom creations).
Honestly, if you DON’T have them refill automatically, Leeches, as the dedicated crafters, get shafted a bit, since they need to spend extra money all the time just to do the thing they’re supposed to be good at. Crafting is a bit punishing in Blades already—I personally think it’s a good idea to make it less so for Leeches.
Jakob Oesinghaus Its punishing for a reason though. The Leech already has access to a good 10 alchemicals, drugs and bombs for free where other people have to craft them still. Having up to 6 free tier 6+ Alchemicals/Drugs/Explosives is extremely OP if you dont have to craft them first. The coin cost is there for a reason; to balance the game.
I don’t think Blades is overly concerned with the notions of “OP” and “balance”, but it’s everyone’s game to play as they want to play it.
Jakob Oesinghaus If the Leech had access to any alchemical they invent, had no cost to make it, and didn’t have to craft one to have it in his bandolier, then you will have an invisible, explosive wielding, super-speed, ghostfield manipulating man who has spent nothing to get that every session. If you want that kind of chaos in your game, then by all means, go for it. But the cost and tier put in place is there for a reason.
If it wasn’t there, the Leech instantly becomes better than most other playbooks simply because it doesn’t have to prepare anything beforehand to be powerful. Take Rituals for example, the Whisper has to prepare it before they use it in a score. This ballances the use of powerful effects. Same applies to the Leech imo
Antimatter They have spent a lot of downtime actions studying those schematics. They have spent one downtime action per alchemical or bomb, and probably plenty of coin, to make those things in the first place (as I’ve said earlier, I would have them craft it once — it just refills for free once crafted). And I’d guess that formulas that give you invisibility(!) or super-speed(!) would have some downsides, wouldn’t they, since you decide that when creating the alchemical. (not counting explosives here since they start with bombs anyway, or ghost field manipulation, since you can do that with Attune anyway).
In comparison to the Whisper: the Whisper doesn’t care about Tier at all; rituals are “balanced” by the fact that they cost stress and have other hideous costs, plus you are meddling with forces humans should not meddle with. The downtime action is just a fictional reflection of the fact that ritual magic takes time to perform. The Coin you need to pay for the downtime action for a ritual is really the smallest part of the cost.
Here’s an example of why I would allow Leeches to take their own crafted consumables as part of the bandolier. My Leech had taken the spark-craft special ability, and his first project was an electroplasmic grenade. Cool, isn’t it? Now, the crew is Tier 0, but they have a workshop, so he gets to add +2 to his result level. Rolling his 2 dice in tinker, the most likely result is a 4-5, so on average, he will have to spend 3 Coin to make these grenades (or maybe a pair of grenades), every time. I want him to use his cool toys, since I’m a fan of the players and he comes to the game to use cool toys (since that’s what Leeches do). Now he’ll have to make a choice between using his toy, or using those 3 Coin to heal the gaping chest wound, if he even has 3 Coin.
…. which means he’ll most likely use it only very rarely. That sucks.
In my games:
1-They can use the items for allowing certain actions/increase the effect/improve the position. In this case, they automatically recover them at the end of the score. But when they do something like this I can offer them a Devil’s Bargain to really spend the item in order to also get an extra dice. In this case, they have to spend a downtime action to recover their basic equipment. This can also be the compromise of a 4-5.
2-A lot of the items don’t have any actual mechanical effect, but really help the players to describe their scoundrels actions and feel the flavour of the setting. And if the description is good enough, you can let them improve effect/position or roll for weird things that weren’t allowed without that spiritbane charm at hand.
3- I assign them load rating depending on their description of the item. This can be used as a drawback when they craft it for the first time.
Jakob Oesinghaus I understand your point, but then, let’s take a Leech player who has completed the plans for those grenades already, and has also completed the plans for a potion which makes him invisible, and another which makes him super fast.
This Leech has already crafted each of these once. So, in your version of the rules, he has perminent access to these in his bandolier for free.
This allows the following, hard to manage, things to happen:
1. The Leech, after making each thing only once, now has perminent access to invisibility, superspeed, and grenades.
2. The Leech, for free, can bring upto 6 of his creation with him. Say hello to an invisible, super fast 3-man crew which the Leech is responsible for, for free.
I’m not saying your version is bad. I’m just saying that after a certain amount of in-game time it becomes way too powerful for something that’s free up to 6 times.
Antimatter
Step 4 of Inventing on pg 224:
“Player asks: “What drawbacks does this item have, if any?” GM answers by choosing one or more from the drawbacks list, or by saying there are none.”
The GM uses drawbacks as a dial to determine the “cost” of each use of the crafted item.
Volatile, Unreliable, Conspicuous are all drawbacks that would give a player pause in any given situation. There is always the option of giving an invented alchemical the Consumable drawback although I would advise a GM carefully consider adding that one; don’t want to accidentally be a weasel toward the players for the sake of some mythical “balance” that doesn’t actually exist in the game.
Drawbacks are the reason characters can craft powerful permanent items that don’t get “used up” (like weapons, etc) and get unlimited uses from them.
2. Only sick psychomindfucks do not bring a Spirit Charm, right?
Bringing one is an easy fiction first-gaming reason to be allowed to avoid possession from a ghost. Some games might even give advantage in form of effect or position.
Our Cult, with only one whisper, never wears any sort of charm, and it’s part of our charm-, … scary routine.
Omari Brooks page 225
“Consumable. This creation has a limited number of uses (all alchemicals must have this drawback, usually one use).”
All alchemicals MUST use that draw back.
Antimatter
Good catch.
Alchemicals being required to have the Consumable drawback just reinforces the fact that another PC using Ritual to mimic the effects of an Alchemical is going to be able to use their ability more often and for a cheaper overall cost than the alchemical player will be able to use their potion.
Just to be clear I’m diverging into a tangent about the art of running Blades versus the science (or RAW).
I guess the question is, is that discrepancy between crafted alchemicals and other abilities in the game right for everybody’s table?
Let’s say we have a Tier 0 crew with no workshop upgrade.
The “Ritual” player can use their two downtime actions to have their, let’s say Tier 6 ritual up and running every session. One for the ritual and one to clear stress. Even if they don’t clear enough stress with the first vice roll, they can pay a paltry 1 coin to indulge again and again; the odds are in their favor to clear enough stress to use the ritual.
Now the alchemical player, without a workshop and at tier zero, might have to spend 4-7 coin just to craft their Tier 6 potion that does effectively the same thing as the ritual player’s ritual.
I know the amount of coin awarded to crews for scores is flexible but I find it hard to believe that the Tier 0 alchemical player is going to have 4-7 coin to burn every session.
That being said the GM has a bunch of dials to twist to address this if they see fit (like how many batches of alchemical are produced from one crafting action, requiring rare ingredients for rituals, etc).
I can’t fault anybody wanting to use a house rule that enables the alchemical inventor to be able to use their creations more frequently.
A tier zero crew without a workshop shouldn’t have abundant access to anything. They’re deprived by their very nature.
I agree with Rebecca.
Also rituals require an entire score or LTP just to find a source for one, making it way more resource intensive. Also some more powerful rituals can take 2 downtime actions to prepare, and often involve a roll to determine the effects. They’re also a 1 time use per score and heavily waste downtime.
A tinkerer uses 1 DTA to make his invention (unless it’s complex like a Hull). He pays to up his result to what he needs. It is a LTP to invent something, but no score is needed to get it and it costs him no stress to make. Consumable makes alchemicals a one time use (usually).
Putting this in the Bandolier for free is like telling your whisper:
“Nah it’s cool, cast your ritual 6 times with no drawbacks.”
It’s a stress vs coin resource weigh up, with ritual eating up more of your (And potentially your crew’s) time.
Antimatter
A score to find a ritual source is LESS resources intensive since you aren’t even spending, at minimum, one downtime action to complete a LTP (assuming extremely short like a 4-clocks for LTPs but usually they aren’t that short).
There are options to require rituals to require more resources but once again these are dials that the GM sets; there is no baseline and it’s going to look different at every table. There is no guarantee a “powerful” ritual is going to take two downtime to set up, or require and action roll to use, or require a rare item, or be unpredictable to require a fortune roll, etc.
Unless coin starts magically raining over Duskvol it’s always going to be a harder barrier to obtain/craft items that require it and in quantities that matter.
A score to acquire a ritual source is optional; a player could just use a LTP instead. It’s debatable which one is harder to accumulate: coin or cleared stress. Since there is no downtime action to generate coin in core Blades, I’m going with that.
The way I would play the interaction with the bandolier is a bonus to carry weight; so it costs 1/3 load for one dose.
I tend to be a stingy GM, because I find that long-running campaigns (which tend to be all I do) lend themselves towards overabundance which leads to overscaling or boredom if they’re not managed carefully.
I think getting your choice of six of the ten potions granted in the Leech’s bandolier item, gratis, every Score, is PLENTY generous. Before deciding on whether something should be granted, purchased, or crafted, I ask myself, “could a person in fiction with an unlimited supply of this object become independently wealthy selling this supply and thus not have to pursue a life of crime?” If the answer is yes, it makes no sense that someone with an infinite supply of invisibility potions is knocking over liquor stores.
Rebecca W
So the world around the players doesn’t react to their “overabundance”?
Nobody is going to escalate when they realize somebody has an unlimited amount of invisibility potions?
If it’s reasonable to assume that the Spirit Wardens are going to get suspicious and investigate why the death bells aren’t ringing when people die then it’s also reasonable to assume that someone is going to figure out how to counter an invisible thief (for example invisibility doesn’t cover the sound a thief makes nor does it affect the air that the thief displaces, etc). So the only thing that is left unprotected IS liquor stores…
I’ve got too much going on when I GM to worry about keeping players humble, starved, or struggling. If something seems to good to be true, it is, and that means someone is coming to take it from the PCs for themselves or protect themselves against it. There is always an arms race going on.
Ultimately it has to make sense fictionally for me to be able to move forward. Does it make sense that the Leech can pack 6, Tier 4 Standstill Poisons in their set of bandoliers for essential “free” but can’t pack 6 of their own Tier 4 creations? There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere.
No need to be snippy about it.
Yeah, let’s take it down a notch.
The book doesn’t have a definitive answer on the Leech bandolier thing, which means you are free to judge it how you like for your group —
which means that you don’t need to browbeat each other into consensus here.
Run it how you like.
All my love to stingy GMs, though!
John Harper out of curiosity, though, how ubiquitous did you envision the alchemicals being, after a PC successfully crafted them once?
Michael Esperum Thanks, but you used up your ration of love for today, so you won’t be able to use it in any future encounters until tomorrow 😉
The way I’ve handled crafted alchemicals is to simply have them take up a bandolier slot when used. I’m also open to a character replacing a listed item for one of their own creation, making it permanent, depending on its potency, etc. This is one of several ways to allow for further customization.
These tweaks aren’t going to wreck the game. It’s designed to be tailored to taste so have fun with it! Have the conversation with your group and see where it goes. 😊
Rebecca W Love from GMs takes many forms, I’ve learned to cherish them all.
Michael Esperum Aww, I’m all warm and fuzzy now.
John Harper
I don’t think anybody was actually looking for consensus. I think many in the community view Blades is a tweakable system not a doctrine.
Consequently does anybody have a stock comment disclaimer to indicate non-hypothetical questions, genuine desire for discussion/debate, and that expression of personal view points are just that and not a personal attacks?
I didn’t think personal attacks were happening. But it sure looked like an argument to prove a best way, and not sharing of techniques, to me.
I could be wrong! It’s hard to judge sometimes. Overall, this community is great and well behaved. If everyone is cool, then I’m cool. 🙂
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. I think Antimatter’s answers make the most sense to me so they’re what I’m going with for my games.
Happy to have helped 🙂
Hmm, interesting, I guess I hadn’t looked closely enough to realize that the alchemicals listed on the Leech’s playbook are actually things that you would otherwise have to craft. If the Leech has to craft each one of those per the crafting rules, then (1) the bandolier is really just a load-helping tool, not an actual source of alchemicals and (2) the bandolier doesn’t not actually replenish between scores once you use up your consumable items. If the Leech actually has to separately craft each consumable use of everything on the bandolier list, then why have a list, and why say that it replenishes?
I think I’m going to say that the Leech can freely use the ones on the list without having to go through the crafting process, but anything else (whether other alchemicals in the book or custom creations) has to be crafted and gets consumed.
Conrad William That’s what I was getting at. The list is free so long as the Leech has “reasonable access” to them (i.e. he has a supplier or the materials lying around to make them). However, custom alchemicals and spark-craft creations need to be crafted each time, because you wouldn’t have reasonable access to them (because the design is unique to you, and therefore you’d need to buy the materials to make it).
Similarly if something on their list becomes not “reasonably accessible” then they can’t restock the bandolier with it. For example, in my game, the ministry of preservation has boycotted the materials used to make explosives; meaning my tier 1 Leech no longer has reasonable access to the materials to make grenades, and nor does anyone else have grenades to supply him. This became not available due to story reasons and the faction game, not because I just said so (which would be harsh)
Antimatter I like that boycott. If players then want to secure a cache of explosive-crafting materials they can organize some gather info and a score to do so… instead of the supplies being “available by default”.