Quick question on effect level.
So I’m good with limited and stamdard effects, but what really gets me stuck is great effect. Let’s take an example (feel free to provide your own when you help me out):
Whip, the Lurk, is sneaking up on a guard and is trying to take him out quietly with a sleeper hold.
If the GM ruled Limited effect (for some strange reason) I get that the choke hold might not K/O the guard right away and you may need a second roll to finish him.
If the GM ruled Standard effect, the guards out no problem on a success.
But if the GM ruled Great Effect, which is what I would rule in this situation (scales a non factor, as is tier, potency is the main decider and the guard is unaware that Whip is there, so he has an advantage; tell me if I’m wrong on this), then what “better” out come is there than “you K/O the guard”?
I think there can definitely be some circumstances where great effect may not make sense or make much difference.
Some of it is going to come down how exactly things are framed.
Like maybe the GM says okay I’m going to make a KO clock for this guy. So a great effect result could totally fill it up in one go, but a standard effect won’t quite get there.
Or maybe standard effect knocks him unconscious, but not before he makes some noise from struggling and great effect puts him down totally silently.
Here’s an idea: Standard effect successfully knocks him unconscious, but now you’re standing in the open next to an unconscious body, which is a risky/desperate position for the next action depending. Great effect gives the player more control over the fiction, ask the them “So what do you do with the guy, and how are you remaining stealthy?” Then just let their answer be true, setting up what is probably a controlled/risky position.
Limited means asking what more is left: you’ve got him in a chokehold, but now he’s flailing and fighting back and scratching at your eyes. Put him down or get someone to help.
Standard means getting what you want: you put him in a chokehold and out he goes.
Great means what extra benefit do you get: you put him in a chokehold and after a second the guard cracks, chokes out that they don’t wanna die, they have a kid on the way — banging on your arm and begging what can they do to be let go.
Great means new opportunities for the players.
A simple benefit of Great Effect in this case might be…
…you not only choke the guard unconscious, you quickly stow him in a spot he won’t be found and he’s unconscious for the duration of the score.
…he’s the head guard and has the master key to the place you’re infiltrating (or the guard rotation manifest).
…the guards are all wearing uniforms and while choking him unconscious, you notice a weakness in the armor that you can exploit in the future.
…he’s damn near your twin in both face and build, allowing you to wear his uniform and pass as a guard.
Antimatter
I think the entire parameters of what is possible on a standard effect, in that particular scenario, might have to be changed to account for great effect.
The obstacle is getting into position without raising suspicion before or after the guard is taken out; not actually taking an unaware guard out, that just happens. I’ve seen the sneak/takeout example come up in multiple game systems and I’m surprised by how many ninja guards are being employed…
Limited effect = the guard, and only the guard, is alerted as you engage them, you have an opportunity to finish things of quietly with another action but they will directly oppose you.
Standard effect = you take the guard out but you still have to get rid of the evidence with another action. It might actually might not be horrible to leave evidence behind depending on how tight a timetable the PCs are on; it’s their choice after all.
Great effect = you take the guard out and get rid of the evidence in the same action, quickly and quietly.
This particular example shows why you typically want clocks to represent larger threats, rather than going moment by moment to take out a bunch of individuals, at least during a score.
It’s the difference between:
“Okay, there’s a guy on watch. You want to knock him out? Okay, you have great effect, but I’m not sure what that means, so I guess you’ll just knock him out. Okay, you succeed. You knock him out and continue forward. There’s another guard approaching from around the corner. You want to knock him out?….” ad infinitum.
And:
“Okay, there’s a bunch of lookouts on patrol. I’m setting up a 6-clock called Perimeter Security. You want to sneak around and take out what security you can so your crew can follow after you? Okay, you have great effect, which means three ticks on this clock, which will mean you take out about half of the perimeter security. Okay, you succeed. You’re about halfway done with this obstacle, how do you want to proceed, crew?”
But I agree that there may be some times where great effect doesn’t seem to make any obvious sense; there’s no fictional place for the “better effect” to go. When this happens, I’ll usually ask the players what they think the great effect could be. If they have a reasonable idea, I’ll go with their suggestion. If they don’t, then the great effect really doesn’t matter, and that’s okay sometimes.
For me, there’s always that moment in Dishonoured, where you’ve just done a non-lethal takedown on a guard, and you’ve got a split second to hit the button to pick up the body before they fall on the ground. There may not be a lot of difference mechanically, but it’s an issue of grace and style. And sometimes that split second makes the difference between dragging the body off to the side in time or not.
Alfred Rudzki, I really like the idea of verbally interacting with the guard. That opens up a lot of possibilities, good and bad, but guaranteed to be interesting. Hell, imagine it tumbling into the guard helping you (because he despises his employer) and eventually joining your crew! The bad side could be he’s an assassin sent to kill the noble you’re burglarizing. Now you’re dealing with a killer who may or may not see you as a liability.
Ben Morgan, I was leaving Addermire and Domino’d two guards on a platform, then stun bolted one. The other was about fall off to their death and I rushed over and caught them. I love those moments, be they to get a non-lethal run, avoid detection or just plain mercy due to immersion.
Also, Strong Arms and Undertaker are your friends, especially when you craft a bonecharm with four of each. 😉
Standard effect, the guy is quickly and quietly knocked out, however that guard may wake up or be found as the result of some future complication on a different roll during the score.
Great effect: The guard is no longer an issue for the remainder of the score; no one will find him, he won’t wake up until tomorrow, etc.
Not sure if anyone mentioned it…could it be that he makes more noise?
John Taber, making noise during the struggle is a perfect Consequence, just waiting to be resisted so as not to tarnish your Corvo-worthy attack on the guard. 🙂
You reach out to choke the guard, but instead entwine your fingers in his hair. You fear one more Great Effect will lead to an awkward letter home in the morning.