Hey everyone. Im curious to get some input on how you guys use Position in order to get different outcomes based off dice rolls. From my understanding the main thing is consequences for not getting a perfect six get more substantial as you go from Controlled, to Risky, to Desperate. My concern and the concern of my players is that something might start to feel more like a failure than a success. If my player rolls to attack someone, and they roll a 5, from a risky position they might not only not kill the guy, but get harm as well. Or am I reading that the wrong way? It seems as though the statements “You do it but…. reduced effect” seem a bit contradictory. What do you all think of how to judge position/effect?
Hey everyone.
Hey everyone.
I think that there’s some legitimacy to this concern, honestly. The harm example is, to me, a very clear indicator of how this game is not meant to be D&D, and moving from “encounter” to “encounter” will result in a game that is even more of a question of “how many rolls can I make before everything is just the worst” than the intended BitD experience. Somewhat related, I’ve noticed that Devil’s Bargains can also exacerbate the issue, guaranteeing something bad just for a higher chance at success or not causing a different bad thing.
A few caveats, though. Reduced effect (as far as I know, correct me if I’m wrong) only matters when it comes to clocks, so it shouldn’t affect too much. The stuff that it does affect, shouldn’t be affected BY much (the effect is only reduced by one tick). When you’re rolling to do something that’s not involving a clock, the game tends to be more… accurate in calling successes successes. You state your objective and method, then roll, and a success means you’ve done the thing you set out to do. This is usually pretty satisfying, even on a 4 or 5.
You can always roll to resist the consequences of a fail, no matter what it is. Whenever you do this, you can basically say no to any failure that was coming your way. This is a powerful countermeasure against feeling like you’ve failed on 5 out of the 6 possible results. If you’re being threatened with level 2 or 3 harm at the start of a score and you’re sitting at 6 stress, you can end up feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place, but that’s something you can USUALLY avoid with a little resource management in downtime.
Things do seem to get pretty shitty for the characters, especially new ones in a Tier 0 crew, but keep in mind that the only way you can “lose” the game as a player who’s attached to your character is if you take too much trauma or harm. In the case of harm, you aren’t necessarily dead past level 3 harm. Even if you are, you might be able to continue playing that dead character as a ghost if take the right steps!
Reduced effect always matter (fictionally), clock or not:
For example…
…if the intended effect was “kill the guy”, he’s not killed but he’s wounded.
…it the intended effect was “kill the guy stealthly”, you killed him, but not stealthly.
Having said that, it’s important to keep in mind that a 4/5 is a success at a cost, but a success nontheless: it can have one (or more) consequences, but you get what you want (maybe not all of it, with a reduced effect, but at least some of it).
The consequences that you choose (especially on a 4/5)and how Resist interact with them (mitigating or reducing them) really set the tone of the game.
Judge position (and effect) following the fiction and the expectations of your game: use the effect factors to help you, but don’t let them constrain you.
Also remember that a character can choose to accept a riskier position to get a better effect.
When you use clocks, move the fiction with each roll: success and failure change the status of things, always.
Don’t use clocks just as “situation hp”, and abandon them as soon as they aren’t important (even if they are incomplete).
Devil’s Bargain are also a great way to introduce dramatic tension and ask the players “what are you character willing to sacrifice?”.
I’m not a big fan of using reduced effect the way MisterTia86 suggests, because I feel it undermines the idea of “success”; I prefer to use it in the sense of “you did the thing as you intended, but the result wasn’t entirely what you were expecting” – you open the lock no problem, but the door also has a chain catch, or you successfully prowl along the rooftops, but before you reach your ultimate destination, you find that the building you were planning to cross has been torn down, leaving you with some awkward choices.
This blurs together with “complications” in general, and I think that is by design – reduced effect is a complication.
Also, I advise using Devil’s Bargains to introduce new elements or dilemmas rather than just straight up negative consequences.
Not really sure what people have against 4-5 being less of a effective roll. The base percentages are pretty much the same as Apocalypse World which has the same “yes but” thing going on: 50% yes but, 16% yes. With 2d6 your percentages are obviously better giving nearly 1/3rd chance of “Yes”. Also note that damage and to hit are rolled into one so Reduced effect meaning less damage isn’t much different than any other system where to hit and damage are separate and getting a hit but then rolling crap for damage.
The reasoning behind Yes But style is that Blades isn’t about making things easy on the players. You are a gang up against high odds in a dark and deadly world. Also, part of the game of BitD is discussing what you want to do before the roll is made: if you’ve got a terrible position/effect so maybe instead of jumping into the fray it’d be better to set someone else up using teamwork rules.
Colin Fahrion
The reasoning behind people not liking it is because only “succeeding” 1 time in 6 feels terrible for most people. So you need to be careful that it hews close to what John always says, which is that you should have, essentially, a 50% chance of success. When you start making 4-5 too close to feeling like failure, people start to feel disempowered and ineffective.
Mike Pureka yeah that gets into setting expectations with players new to the system. Much like AW, there’s not much in the way of “ok I missed whatever” with the system. It’s either failure, success with consequences, or a solid success.
Setting the stage with BitD as a GM means you need to tell your players that everything you do in Duskvol has consequences: wanna take a swing at that guy who is in your way? You have a good chance of getting hurt yourself. Wanna expand your crew’s turf? You’re gonna have to take it from someone else. Wanna commune to gain favor with a ghost? You stand a good chance of having some supernatural forces affect you not to your liking.
A Reduced Effect isn’t always that bad, it just depend on what was the initial Effect.
If it was a Great Effect, it’s just reduced to Standard, which is a solid success.
If it was Standard Effect it’s scaled down to Limited, which prompts the questions “how is the effect diminished? what significant obstacle remains)
Mike Pureka those were just examples for a Standard Effect reduced to Limited…and I could see yours also as Complication or Worse Positions.
Good answers, everyone.
Michael Yater The main thing to remember is that the group is in charge of setting the goal, position and consequences of each roll. It’s easy to fall into the gamer habit of simply “calling for a roll” to do stuff in general, without really engaging the system of position and effect in a meaningful way.
If a scoundrel wants to suddenly kill a man, well, that’s quite the maneuver isn’t it? Are they in a controlled position to do that? Is it risky? Is it desperate? What are they risking?
Is the enemy trying to kill them right back? Then it’s probably desperate. They’re going toe to toe, to the death. On a 4/5, they do it, yeah, with consequences. They inflict a mortal wound, and (in this example) they suffer one in return.
For some players, this won’t seem like a success, if they’re used to a system where you simply roll to do stuff. In Blades, a roll resolves both the action of the PC as well as the action of the opposition. As others have said, a roll in Blades is more like a whole “round” of action (or a whole fight) in other games. All the to-hit and damage rolls, for both sides.
In Blades, the PCs can’t really do things safely. Everything is a risk of harm, consequences, heat, angry factions, etc. But they can do stuff. All those 4/5s let them get stuff done, while they get smashed, bloodied, and harried by enemies. Doskvol chews you up and spits you out. The characters that start the game won’t necessarily be the same ones that see the crew through to it’s ultimate end.
(If you want less immediate consequences for those 4/5s, you can always use a clock. Instead of instantly being noticed when they roll a 4/5 to sneak in, instead start an Alert clock for the guards and tick it up. For instance, in your game when they were messing around in the Red Sash HQ, a single Alert clock could have tracked the various suspicions they caused as they tried to fast-talk the Sashes.)
The theme for Blades is one of struggle and consequences, so you almost never achieve anything scott-free — at least according to the dice results. This is why the PCs have additional resources to mitigate consequences — so the players have to make hard choices about what’s worth resisting (spending their valuable stress) or when it’s worth taking a hit for a teammate, or using your Armor, or agreeing to a tough Devil’s Bargain, etc.
(Teamwork can also mitigate things a lot, turning a Desperate roll into a Risky one, increasing effect, and/or pumping up the dice pool. It takes a while for most groups to really use teamwork well, which is by design.)
Anyway, to answer your initial question, you mainly distinguish the various positions by what the PC is risking. Describe the NPC in action, about to do something to the PC. That’s what they’re risking when they act, and that defines the position.
“You rush in to stab him in the neck, and he flashes his sword up in an expert parry, to turn your blade aside and run you through. Desperate, great effect, yeah?” Some players will naturally enjoy this high-stakes grind, while others will be annoyed by it — wanting to skate by on ‘good rolls’ and avoid all trouble. Adjusting their expectations can be tricky.
For instance, in your last session, Matt had a mini freak out when he realized that doing all his spooky Whisper shit in front of his crew mates would be really traumatic for them. He instantly rejected this as a possibility — saying something like, “If that’s how it works, my whole character is worthless!” Heh heh.
Of course, that is how it works — Matt’s just not yet used to playing the Whisper, having to accept some tough limits on his super-useful magical powers. There’s a reason why Whispers don’t rule the world. They’re not RPG spellcasters. Consorting with ghosts can be really powerful and solve lots of problems, but this is Blades in the Dark — there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
Anyway, all of these dials — position, consequences, effects, supernatural biz — are for the group to turn. Try to avoid unilateral decisions as the GM. Ask the group what they think. Is this desperate? What’s a good risk here? Do you think that’s the full effect, or is there more left to do? This is a conversation and part of playing Blades is establishing things that work for your group.
John Harper, that answer is Gold, it covers so many topics of Blades’ theme / content / style. It NEEDS to make its way into the book, if only as an appendix for FAQ.
Yeah, I’ve been writing stuff like this for the book lately, so it was easy to drop it here. 🙂
Thanks so much everyone for your responses. And John Harper seriously dude I have never seen the kind of community interaction you have with the community of this game. It is clear you love this game and love RPGs in general and I want you to know I greatly appreciate and respect it. Me and my crew will never stop shouting you out on our streams. #Respek.
I’ve always said that when you get one of my games you don’t just get the text, you also get access to me as the designer and to the community of experts around it. Plus now you get all the great videos of play that people (like Michael) make. This is a great time to be an RPG player. 🙂