After some info gathering went badly in Session 3 of #theHulls, my table had a discussion about the game and their expectations.
One player hadn’t expected the info gathering and the action rolls to be so arduous. Further, they felt that the crew sheet promised all kinds of high stakes, strategic factional play, but the game was drawing them into brawling in the dirt on the street.
There’s a few things to unpack here. I think it’s clear that as soon as an action roll is called for, the story can take nose dive into complications. If it’s just a fortune roll for info, then its pretty clean, but if you action roll with a trait then in some ways inevitable you’ll land with 7 stress before the real score begins. That’s all cool.
Part of my players’ expectations were set I think by the crew creation and how I paced introducing scores. You know the step where players pick the factions they are friends or enemies with, I think my players got a sense that the game would focus on strategic, goal-orientated play, setting faction against faction, and expanding the crew. That’s obviously an interest of my players, the Hulls are Ambitious. They also started playing the high-stakes strategy game from the outset, by cleverly avoiding Baszo’s question, and then manoeuvring control of a Tier 3 factions turf without attracting too ire. This may be why this info gather session felt like such a slowdown for them. They felt they were struggling in the weeds, fighting to survive on such small fry and the big game where they thought they were playing was so far behind. After all the actions by NPC factions, I think they felt like the big game was go to leave them behind just because they couldn’t open a door to find out how to nail a ghost who’s taunting them.
Part of this might be because of how I paced the initial score options. I probably didn’t emphasis how insignificant it is being Tier 0 compared to say Tier 2 of the Lampblacks or Tier 3 of the Seaside Dockers. It makes me wonder if focusing the first score or two on some basic burglary or robbery might have given them a better sense of their place in the criminal world. Maybe slowly building introducing the effect of their activity on other factions, more slowly revealing what other NPC factions are doing during their downtime. In part I think the players have felt overwhelmed by their options for scores and lack a sense of what activity is above their station. The turf grab was interesting but perhaps gave them a sense of momentum before they had established their roots. Again, by allowing them to wiggle out of Baszo’s question, I may have done them some disservice here.
I don’t know these are issue with the rules so much as about how I might have paced and set expectations better. Any tips on that would be welcome.
There was also questions about when Downtime can be triggered. The game gives the impression that the phases are a clear procedure, but in many ways there’s lots of wriggle room and space for captain’s calls. As the text describes, an info gather might be too big to do in one go. I also think that, like our session 3, info gathering might leave the crew in such a sorry state they need to recover before tackling the score or they’ll get squashed. Or, if its a time critical score, they much just have to walk away.
I’m also not really using the effect system, just calling standard effect almost all the time. Part of the problem is I don’t really understand, when I’m faced with a roll, why I would call something other than standard, especially when I’ve already decided what position they’re in. It kind of feels like I’m double punishing them if I set effect low as well position difficult or desperate.
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I also have an itch to address the question of scale. I think that might be a good time to point out the cost of independent operation. If they are snuggled up to bigger allies, then they can be pointed towards a higher playing field. When they face more minor challenges, they might be able to leverage their allies to deal with them, or retreat under an ally’s tier umbrella.
But if they want to be on their own, then they have no infrastructure. They have minimal delegation, just what gangs they put together.
They can play in the bigger game, sure, but they are little expendable pieces at this point.
If you wanted a different play style, I think it could be intriguing to start the crew off at a higher tier, either because they are established or they are spun off from a bigger crew that gives them autonomy in exchange for alliance.
Also sussing out starting motivation can be hard. I have a group where one guy wanted to build an empire and the other wanted to run heists, and after a few sessions, they felt those goals pulling in different directions. Here is one way to help smooth those expectations out in the same direction in future games.
https://plus.google.com/113881370051836623777/posts/XSMfGYdgR8C
Andrew’s already tackled the big questions, so I’ll give my take on the last two:
“There was also questions about when Downtime can be triggered. The game gives the impression that the phases are a clear procedure, but in many ways there’s lots of wriggle room and space for captain’s calls.”
I was similarly confused! What helped clear this up for me was realizing that, while this game takes some cues from games like Apocalypse World and Mouse Guard, it is distinctly different. There’s no dictated order of phases or moves (Heist, Downtime, Gather Info, Heist, Downtime, Gather Info, etc).
For instance, in my last session, a long-term crisis clock ticked into full after a downtime phase. The crew dealt with the aftermath of this crisis – riots in the streets, their protected businesses being threatened, debating how they could exploit the crisis, settling on their next score. Some of this involved die-rolling and daring action. However, I didn’t follow this up with downtime, as they weren’t really taking time off.
“I’m also not really using the effect system, just calling standard effect almost all the time. Part of the problem is I don’t really understand, when I’m faced with a roll, why I would call something other than standard, especially when I’ve already decided what position they’re in. It kind of feels like I’m double punishing them if I set effect low as well position difficult or desperate.”
And this is fine! I feel like almost all actions should be standard effect. That’s why it’s standard. 🙂
The only considerations I use for effect now are:
1) There are certain rules that dictate you’ll have lower effect, Harm being the most prominent.
2) There are certain playbook options that dictate a PC will have higher effect. My players are usually pretty good at speaking up when these apply. 🙂
3) Sometimes the dice will give you the option of reducing effect (as a consequence) or increasing it (as a critical).
Only if none of the above come into play do I ask: what does it feel like in the fiction? Attacking an armored man with a knife, or threatening the boss of a more powerful crime faction, or sifting through a labyrinthine library one book at a time, feels like it should have no more than limited effect. Cutting down an unarmed man with a fine hand weapon, extorting someone you have leverage over, or using a scholar’s decrypted notes to navigate a labyrinthine library, feels like it should have increased effect. To me, anyway.
It usually takes some time with a game to see where it’s headed and what the players really expect. People are very bad at simply stating these kinds of things up front.
Part of RPG play is discovering these preferences and interests by trying stuff out and seeing the reactions.
Now that you know what they’re after, you can tune the game in that direction. Gloss over stuff with fortune rolls if they don’t want to dig down into it. If they’re really itching to play a more strategic faction game and don’t want to play out the part where they earn it, you could jump ahead a year or so, bump up their Tier to 2, let them pile on some Cohorts and a few other crew upgrades, and reset the game in that direction.
As part of skipping ahead and adding tier, I could totally see charging them a point of Trauma for it. =)
That’s actually in the rules! You know my brain too well, Andrew. 🙂
Great comments. I really appreciate them all, very helpful.
Thanks Andrew Shields. The point about infrastructure is well put, particularly given they don’t have any cohorts at all.
I also like your idea of crew motives, though it does strike me as very similar to reputation. The Hulls have a rep as ambitious, which seems to clearly align with the players’ expectations. Your motives and descriptions may provide more clarity out of the box, but the conversation the players had about their crew’s reputation kind of covered that already and I think help the players engage and own the crew.
Glad to see you’re taking a similar approach, John Perich. You’re explanation on when to shift effect level away from standard is helpful! Thanks!
John Harper, using more fortune rolls and sailing through info gathering is definitely something I’m considering to pick up the pace.
And I think I’ll pitch a time jump to where they’re Tier 2. They might be interested! It’s not like they aren’t enjoying the narrative, I just think it was jarring a little with where they’d thought play would focus. A point of Trauma sounds like a perfect reflection of the trials they’d have been through to rise to Tier 2. I’m thinking some Fortune rolls to decide the fate of factions plans that I find interesting, and maybe a few more dots against factions to represent changing alliances and enmities. I’ll definitely be letting you know if they go for the jumpcut.
I think the main difference here between reputation and goals is that reputation is how you’re known for what you’ve done, and goals is what you want to do together.
If you’re Tier 0, how likely is it that anyone has heard of you anyway? Much less put any thought into how you operate? Has your crew done anything prior to the first outing? If so, does it make sense to put any energy into figuring what scores they might have pulled in the past? I find these to be sticky questions. I’d rather start at the beginning and just get started.
It feels more straightforward to me to say “what drew you together, and what do you want to do as a group in the future?”
I think your crew motives are an interesting direction to go, it’s just not clear formalizing these questions would have added much. Also, the question around hunting grounds (burglary or robbery) also goes in this direction. Rep and hunting grounds, and questions about why the crew got together, all worked well to establish the history and direction of the Hulls. Still, good questions are always a welcome to explore the fiction.
One thing though, reputation is not just how the crew is known for what they’ve done, it’s also what the crew wants to be known as. Part perception, part aspiration.
Interesting! Does it say anywhere in the quickstart that the reputation is how the crew wants to be known?
Also, where are you seeing the question about why the crew got together?
I don’t recall there being any discussion about reputation. It just seems to me that with the groups I’ve played in, the players pick the reputation that they’re interested in being known for. Fictionally it may be all-perception, but as a game component it’s what the players seems interested in aspiring to.
The question about why the crew got together is just a natural one to ask. It’s not in the quickstart anywhere.