EFFECT LEVEL
There was recently some confusion / difference of opinion about how TIER affects the EFFECT LEVEL, which lead into a discussion on how that is set in general.
I know this was brought up here recently, but that post only added to the confusion.
So I went back and gave the rules another read (or three) and the following is how I currently understand it. I might be overthinking it, or misinterpreting it, which is the reason for this post.
Middle of p24 seems to be key:
“If the PC has an advantage in a given factor, consider a higher effect level.”
Those three factors Potency, Quality/Tier and Scale seem to be individually considered and compared.
As I understand it currently, being at a disadvantage in Tier means reduced effect. The rules however make no clear mention if this goes down two levels from standard to no effect if it is tier 0 against tier 2. Even the example is unclear, because it pits tier 2 against tier 3.
For me it was implied by the ambiguitiy that it isn’t a clear thing you can solve by adding or subtracting numbers.
Tier 0 vs Tier 2 would just be reduced effect. So if it was Standard effect to begin with it would drop to Limited.
So would Tier 0 vs Tier 4.
Let’s try to do a clear rundown:
TIER:
A tier 0 Cutter has reduced effect against a tier 4 Spirit Warden. A fine weapon would bring said Cutter to Tier 1. Still reduced effect against the tier 4 Spirit Warden. Even an excellent weapon would still have the Cutter at a reduced effect because it is tier 2 vs tier 4. Even with the crew weapon quality upgrade it would still be reduced effect.
However there are more factors (considered and compared individually): Potency and Scale
SCALE first:
Staying with the example of a lone Cutter against a lone Spirit warden it is a one on one. It could not be fairer.
The superior training of the Spirit Warden is already considered in the step before: Tier. So it shouldn’t come back up here.
Considering just this it would be a tie. No change in effect from this.
[NTBTW rant]
However, the Cutter with “Not To Be Trifled With” (NTBTW) gains Scale, but only to not suffer reduced effect from Scale. So this does not help him overcome a single person within the rules as written. However John Harper himself allowed NTBTW to have a single PC achieve increased effect against a single enemy, if i remember correctly (please correct me if I am wrong, I could not remember when this happened).
But stricly as written it only helps to offset a penalty.
In our example the effect would not change because of Scale. (unless we allow NTBTW to increase Scale and thus increase effect).
[/rant]
Now POTENCY:
This is all about fictional positioning and special abilities / gear that grant Potency.
If our Cutter was to fight a Spirit instead of a Spirit Warden he’d have Potency with Ghost Fighter. But he isn’t.
So let’s assume the Spirit Warden is still dressing, with his armor on, but his weapon out of reach for the first Skirmish. This should give the Cutter Potency and thus increase effect.
Bringing this all together in the following scenario:
The tier 0 Cutter gets the drop on an unarmed tier 4 Spirit Warden. Both are ready to fight.
Because of the TIER difference the effect gets reduced, SCALE does not affect it, but POTENCY increases the effect again.
We end where we began (the rules tell you to use your “gut feeling”, *shrug):
Standard effect.
If the Cutter had no Potency (the Spirit Warden already picked up his weapon) it would be Limited effect.
If the Cutter also lost his weapon (during the previous struggle to climb into the room), the Spirit Warden would be the one with Potency and the Cutter would have zero effect.
That sounds more complicated than it actually is when you do it and I hope my understanding so far is correct. However, we are not done.
After this all got mixed and it’s decided on a final effect level the Cutter still has options:
– He can push himself for increased effect.
– Someone could do a setup action, also to increase effect.
– Or (ignoring the fact that attacking a Spirit Warden is very likely already desperate) the Cutter could trade position for effect.
In our original example of a tier 0 Cutter who attacks an unarmed tier 4 Spirit Warden one of these three options would put him at Great effect. Two of them combined would put him at a level above that.
Am I still on the right track?
Did I miss something?
Thanks!
I think one thing to consider is the section on Dominant Factors on page 25. If you feel one aspect greatly overshadows the others then that needs to be considered. But I do think you are on the right track. The biggest question for me is whether or not a difference of more than one degree of separation in tier reduces effect by more than one. As in your example would a Tier 0 against a Tier 4 be reduced 4 times in effect to below no effect? In which case you would need to have an advantage in every other factor, scale, quality, and potency in order to achieve just limited effect. Putting it into numbers,
Starting at standard effect
Tier 0 vs Tier 4,
Effect= -4 from tier
Potency +1 would make effect -3
Quality +1 would make effect -2
Scale +1 would make effect -1
End result is limited effect
You could then push yourself making it standard effect
If you take a DB, or get a setup from a team mate, I would put that at great effect.
Sorry if I just restated what you were saying, but like you this has been something my group has struggled with. The way I like to do it is have everything start at standard, then go one by one through the list of factors and see what the end result is. After that you can take into account special abilities, pushing/devils bargains, and teamwork actions.
John Harper are we on the right track here?
Michael Yater “would a tier 0 against a tier 4 be reduced 4 times” no, since we are instructed to increase/reduce effect for each factor, and this is a quadruple whammy for just one factor. In the prior versions this was specifically 1 or 2 effect per factor; in the latest version it’s more flexible but the implication is still to adjust by 1 or 2 per factor (and to ignore unimportant factors).
Heiko Qd I consider standard effect to be a “standard” (or “reasonable” if you will) amount of dealing with the current obstacle; 2 ticks on a 2-segment clock, essentially. IE when the thing they want to do overcomes a standard obstacle leaving very little else to do, they probably want a standard effect. This is also about on par with causing someone 2 ticks of damage (bringing them from healthy to “impaired”; or nearly “broken”), which is enough to drive away most combatants. Those who care about their lives anyways.
Sure, all this does is give me a baseline from which I can determine overall effect for the action, but from there I account for Tier/Scale/Potency if needed. IE: If there is a tier difference, I might adjust effect up or down by 1. If the tier difference were huge, I might call it the dominant factor and adjust by 2. If this factor doesn’t matter for some reason, then I ignore it. Same thing with scale and potency.
And from there we might talk about pushing, special abilities, and teamwork (in practice, this conversation actually happens at the same time, since they need this information to make informed decisions about the action – but yea).
I’m kinda with Mark Cleveland Massengale on this:
I start with Standard Effect and adjust with Factors when needed. Factors are just there to remind me what to consider when I’m deciding what is the “base Effect” for the action.
Once I’ve decided the “base Effect”, pushing and teamwork come into play.
Special Abilities come in play any time they need during the whole process (since they can influence just the factors or directly effect)
Mark Cleveland Massengale
At what point would you consider a difference in tier to be an overwhelming factor? Or would that never come into play for tier?
I was thinking the tier (enemy) subtract dies from your roll im wrong?
fabio paroli Effect factors influence only Effect. The only penalities to the dice rolled that I can think of come from Harm and Disadvantages for Fortune and Engagement rolls.
oh ok thx for the info^^
Michael Yater ah, well I consider tier dominant whenever their tier is 2 or more above that of the crew, and the action is clashing with those things that make them higher tier (usually their gear). So in your example, I would have considered it dominant and reduced the effect by 2 (just not by 4 for any one factor).
Worth mentioning I would agree with your evaluation of how to factor in potency/scale. Those can/should compound the negatives to effect, or offset them just like you described.
Mark Cleveland Massengale That makes sense. A Max of -2 or +2 for any one factor seems fair. I will discuss these things with my group. As always this community is the best and I enjoy discussing the game with you all.
Yea, I declare my thought process out loud sometimes to the group (usually when there are multiple factors to consider).
This is really key to the whole “you will have zero effect” delivery too; you paint the possible targets for setup or flashback actions as well as encourage them. it’s also worth detailing too, to get you thinking about some suggestions that best deal with some of those factors in case they get stuck with what to do next or whatever
One thing to keep in mind is that just because a faction is of a higher Tier doesn’t mean every aspect of said faction will outclass the PCs. (I’ve used these examples before and I think they’re worth repeating, so here goes)
Will every lock protecting Unseen assets be Tier 4? No, that doesn’t make sense as having a Tier 4 quality lock on the gate or door of your super-secret warehouse is going to draw more attention than it’s worth. Will the guards patroling in the rainy streets outside be Tier 4? Probably not as such elite sentinels are wasted on patrol duty.
What are Tier 4 are the wards at the inner door of the cleverly hidden vault inside the super-secret warehouse, the Stibleton & Sons locks on said vault as well as the neatly folded hull quiet resting in the shadows of the rafters…
You can also make a lower Tier faction have higher quality things, which can be a great hook. If the PCs aren’t wondering why the Foghounds have Tier 4 locks protecting their hold, I don’t know what’ll pique their interest! 🙂
In the end judge the fiction and go from there. That may seem like lazy advice but it’s worked for me so far.