I will be interested to see what the full rules suggest for when a crew hires an expert to help with the heist. Should the expert have ratings and dice? Should the expert count as equipment? Should the expert participate in group actions? How could they NOT? Best practice, who rolls for the expert? Is that task assigned to the player who hired the expert, or maybe the GM keeps the NPC task close at hand?
Last night the crew hired a whisper to help out with magical stuff, and she proved instrumental to the mission. But she was an NPC, the first time I’ve run a heist with an NPC along. I could see reasonable players wanting to add an NPC as a crew member, not a ganger or hired expert. I wonder how those situations will be handled–at least, how the rules will recommend we handle them.
Hmmm, I Normaly make some stats on the fly and roll for it.
Josephe Vandel That’s what I did last night, but it was kind of odd rolling dice while playing; I’ve gotten out of the habit as GM for this game. =)
I guess what’s odd for me about this is that opposition and neutral parties and challenges are handled as fictional positioning. Adding an NPC, there is a tension between just deciding what the NPC can do through fictional positioning and possibly the fortune die, or treating them like characters.
The NPCs in this game don’t otherwise have stat blocks, the system is wrapped entirely around player action. I think that’s where the tension comes from; party NPCs who are not players, but act like them.
Given the level of abstraction seen in the game, I would probably run them as giving additional dice to rolls, until it got to the point of the NPC being a significant part of the gang, at which point they would get their own sheet.
The trouble with giving additional dice to PC rolls is that the experts they hire will likely be specialized in things the PCs aren’t good at.
The example last night was a whisper. I could also see this coming up with a Lurk lockpicker, or a big cutter for some pantywaist social characters.
You don’t want the noble to roll combat and add a die for his bodyguard when the bodyguard is fighting, for example. Or have the slide roll for attuning when the whisper is getting her groove on.
Yes, we can work around it and make a solution fit. I think the final book should have some suggestions and reflections on the issue.
Andrew Shields but that is exactly what I do want to happen. That way stress and other consequences stay with the PCs and NPCs don’t act as a reserve to take additional hits. A good NPC might be +3 dice, where as equipment might only add 1.
I think it is odd to have player characters rolling for things they are not doing. If a noble is watching the bodyguard fight, or the slide is watching the whisper work the mojo, that’s passive involvement at best.
There is also the question of how an NPC could accept a consequence, if the players are rolling for their characters. The whisper fails a roll to disarm a trap, and the slide behind her gets hit with the consequence, or the bodyguard is fighting an assassin and is basically invulnerable because the one he protects is the one taking the resist roll.
If you contort the teamwork rules to use the assist action for the NPC that they are taking the consequence for another, on top of contributing dice to the other’s work, you’re taking a step further away from how the system works with PCs. Maybe that’s the solution.
I am less accepting than you are, of a noble taking the stress for his bodyguard’s fight. You also have a situation where the PC could spend stress to affect consequences against an NPC, after the NPC is taking the consequence for the PC’s roll which was enabled by the NPC’s fictional assets. Ug.
If the NPC boosts PC dice rolls, then the NPC’s skill depends on who is giving the orders, or watching, or standing closest. One guy rolls the 2d the expert imparts, the guy next to him would roll 4d. So you go with that guy. The NPC’s value depends on the abstract of what PC is “in charge” even if there is no fictional support for the mechanic.
Which is the way I would go in a game structured around NPC sheets. But given that Blades works quite strongly against that principle, I can only assume that the PCs are meant to do ALL of the rolling.
Well, there is the fortune die. Seems like a lot of weight for it to carry, managing an NPC expert’s skill set. But that’s a possible solution too.
Isn’t “Command” the pc action to control npcs? Npcs only operate as well as you direct them. Then use potency and quality to adjust the effect?
Also i view Stress as a more finegrained Form of fate points to block a compel with an evocative label. I don’t think it should be overly interpreted as a sole character resource. It’s really a player control resource which can be narratively interpreted for a character, e.g., the bodyguard barely fends off the attackers subjecting his handler to a slew of near misses and a rushed exit.
I get that Command is used for delegation. I suppose that’s the cleanest solution, since you can use potency and quality to adjust the effect; I was going to note that those only help fill clocks, but no, they work for one-off rolls too.
I can see how you view Stress is probably useful for how you play, but I don’t think it’s backed up by what is in the text so far. Seems pretty anchored in the character.
QS3v3:”Player characters in Blades in the Dark have a special reserve of fortitude and luck called Stress.”
That reads like half a pure character resource and half narrative resource (luck). But, there is no mechanic associated with it. The mechanic follows in the immediately following sentence:
“When they suffer a consequence that they don’t want to accept, they can take stress instead.”
This is phrased (maybe confusingly so) as a character resource, but clearly it’s a player resource (i.e., meta-narrative). It doesn’t make sense for a character within the fiction to reject the fiction. So it’s a capped player veto power, if you will, to the impending fiction. Downtime vice indulgence = refresh.
I personally like tying the meta-aspects into the fiction via the used language. In Fate, the Fate point economy sits on or over the top of the story. Here it feels more integrated.
I agree it is more integrated. I don’t think you could spend stress to prevent a bad thing from happening to someone else, unless the character was directly intervening; the meta-game power is tied directly to the character more than the narrative. It empowers the character to experience relief from narrative consequences, but that doesn’t seem transferable to the story without character action.
So, if one character was watching another character do something across the room, or if a player was watching a scene unfold that did not involve his or her character, stress could not be spent to intervene and change the story.
Andrew Shields , true. Given the team work aspect your second example should be rather rare. In the former, the character could still walk across the room and intervene. With a flashback an absent character could still be inserted after the fact to take the stress. Either way, a fictional tie-in through the character is necessary.
I had to chuckle. I had a group of five that immediately hatched a plan with three prongs! I’ve got groups of 2 that split up to cover more ground. This hobby loves to split the party. =) The only exception I’ve seen is in a sufficiently dangerous dungeon where they could be killed and eaten if understrength.
I would not roll for the npc nor would give bonus dice to inactive pc
As with all other npc I decide based on the narrative what happens. Is the hired hand skilled enough or not. Or does he need help from the pcs (to re-envolve the players)? The bodyguard might be good enough to make an otherwise dangerous situation safe or he could merely by the pcs some time. If I want to involve the PCs command can be useful as has been said before. Also the whisper might need some more time that the PCs have to “find”. Just some loose ideas here …
The solution is in the narrative – no need for me as GM to roll dice.
Bastian Dornauf I think that’s what I was struggling with; giving myself narrative permission to just decide what happens with NPC actions.
I think this discussion has firmed up my thinking. Command rolls when the NPCs are directed, with adjusted effect based on their quality. If they are acting more independently, narrative control modified by a fortune roll if desired. In any case, the only “stats” needed are a sense of their competence to set the narrative scale.
The only question I’m still unsure of how to handle is group actions. Everyone is sneaking, including 1 or 2 expert NPCs along for the ride. Do they contribute stress? Do they roll for that? Maybe decide it with a fortune roll covering the both of them, or if they are expert give them a pass and charge stress if they suck at the group action.
I think I’ve isolated the spectrum that’s giving me trouble. This may be helpful to John Harper in thinking about how to present NPCs with the party to GMs.
On one side of the spectrum, a corollary we’ll call “Powered by the Murphy.” If failure or complicated success in a situation is possible and could add interest, don’t gloss over it with automatic success.
On the other side of the spectrum, a concept that player characters are not given negative consequences, complications, or stress unless their choices lead to those consequences (including the choice to gamble, which may not pay off.)
So handling NPC actions as crew members, and as participants in group actions, should neither give them a free pass nor make them an automatic liability. The question then is how to navigate the spectrum to feel fair; not too easy, not too hard.
Maybe that helps.
Example:
A whisper for hire, specialised in overcomming electroplasmic traps and devices joins the crew for a heist. I aply a “freeform” action called Electroplasma Expert ••• and roll those 3 dices on anything relative to his tasks.
Than I just aply Vigor 1 and Guille 3 and keep that for each roll in the cathegory.
So thats reducing a lot of details for whats needed by the NPC for me.
Another example:
Sellsword Merch
Guille : 1
Insight: 2
Resolve: 3
Vigor: 3
Swordmastery: 3
Dirty tricks: 2
Ignores Scale Penalty
Hates Demons
Likes to confront
Vice: Obligations
Josephe Vandel I think your idea to go to the broad action categories is a good one, that was one thought I had too. My other thought was to list out the kind of gangs you could hire and use that as a stat block; Rook 2, Adept 1 (for example.) After thinking those through, I put them down as not fitting how I understand the game to work.
If I was going to go the route of giving NPCs stats, I’d probably keep a “student, teacher, master” benchmark in mind, with 1d each. Rather than defining skills, as any task came up I’d think where they’d fall on the spectrum; 0 for no familiarity, up to 3 for master. Then make up abilities as needed, and fine gear as appropriate. The question is how much I’d write down during or after, to be consistent next time.
Personally I’m drawn to mixing narrative and command for most everything I’ll do with NPCs, but the pinch point is if they become crew members, party NPCs. (Especially for a couple crews I’m running that only have 2 players.)
The main place I think rolling dice for NPCs MIGHT happen in my games is for group actions, and I’m still ruminating on that one.
Andrew Shields
, indeed humorous, and we haven’t split up once (notable that the group still wanted 2 in a team). But there is still no reason to posit that those three prongs have to be 100% overlapping. I don’t see why narratively a specific character can’t be flashbacked into a scene. To disallow that seems more like a GM/group decision rather than a rules issue.
Well, you can judge for yourself.
https://fictivefantasies.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/blades-in-the-dark-striking-the-red-sashes/
Andrew Shields
, neither time line nor location indicate to me that any one character could not have jumped in on the action to assist. Even while fighting, the Dean could have taken stress to assist by taunting Sir Myron from the fight. Clave or Paeter could’ve aided e.g., by flashing light off a mirror, pocket watch, whathaveyou at the Red Sash fighters.
Those in the box seat did consider those distracting tactics, but decided the risk of getting caught cheating might outweigh the benefit (the fighter was monstrous capable.) And there was some cross-group helping, like the Dean yelling encouragement for the Liar escaping, from the balcony.
It’s not that no crossover is possible, but crossover is limited. The fighter and those in the box seats could not help the whisper with his rat ritual. When the thief was in the kitchen with the thugs no one knew where he was or that something was going on, and that’s tough to affect from the box seats or the main floor.
Yes, after the fight the Dean headed up to barge in on the box seats and help out however briefly. There is flexibility in crossing over some scenes. But that’s not ubiquitous or totally reliable.
My point is, sometimes party splits can be permeable, but they surely are not always flexible to adding in other party members.