My players had a real problem with the “Controlled” dice results. They felt it was punishing to have reduced effect on 4-5, considering that does not happen on Risky or Desperate rolls! Why be punished when you have the best circumstances you can have?
This is how we think it should be:
Crit: Success, increased effect +1, and an additional effect +1 OR additional opportunity.
6: You do it! Effect +1.
4-5: You do it!
1-3: You reveal a flaw, you can either back out or escalate to Risky.
This game is not focused around the individual encounter, but the flow of a session. Within that session there’s one or more heists. It’s just fine, under controlled circumstances, to let the players succeed and move on to the next challenge.
Considering no matter how good the circumstances are, you can’t get a complete success without rolling a 6, and the dice pools are pitifully small, my players reported that they did not feel their characters were competent. This adjustment could help, because when the circumstances favor the rogues they are much more likely to have a competent success and not be undercut if they don’t roll a 6.
On two dice (basically skilled) they succeed get a six (or higher) roughly one third of the time, they succeed (reduced) 4/9ths of the time, and straight out fail (with little consequence, and an opportunity to push their luck) 1/4 of the time.
That is more than fair for basic competency. Plus they can get help and take a Devils Bargain for an extra die for much improved odds.
Yeah, as competent people in a controlled circumstance they can only expect a basic success 1/3 of the time. I guess we disagree on whether that makes them look competent.
4-5 is still success, just a qualified success. With a measly two dice (and they have easy access to more) they are successful 3/4 of the time, unqualified success 1/3 of the time and 1/36 is a bonus success, all with no penalty for failure. And they are still basically scrubs with some skills.
That is something that comes up a lot with Powered by the Apocalypse games. Mid-level success being “success with strings” is fairly common.
I guess. Escalating to risky or taking -1 effect is pretty rough, considering that means you need a critical success on the effect roll to fill a normal 4 segment clock OR you lose control of the situation.
I suppose it is all about managing your expectations. I never played a PbtA game, and I don’t expect to, so I’m coming at this from a different direction.
Yeah I think you’re thinking about success wrong. A six isn’t a basic success, it’s a perfect success in that even in a risky situation with dangers everywhere you both succeed and avoid danger. The 4-5 is a basic success in that you succeed but don’t avoid the dangers everywhere. The players aren’t playing tiddly winks, they are risking their lives.
If “success” is a perfect success, what is a critical success?
Sure thing. The other thing that’s common in PbtA is that if they are doing something that should be easy for them, just let them do it. No need to roll. Everything is about fictional positioning. If they set themselves up perfectly, give it to them, be a fan of the characters.
BONUS SUCCESS. Above and beyond. Just like rolling a 20.
Above and beyond perfect where something extra good happens. Let’s look at it like I don’t know baseball. A perfect being a hit that is a home run and critical being a hit that is a home run with other people on your team already on other the bases.
Nathan Black It is true, I gave them lots of things without rolling. Setting up the gondola pilot to be there to help them out; that’s faction 3, no rolling.
But for picking a lock while in the dark on a heist, I’d say that’s controlled, but not automatic. I also think they have better than 1/3 chance to pull it off without having to escalate or reduce success.
I also think it is odd that a 4-5 on controlled is the ONLY place you are -1 effect. It seems out of place to me. On 1-3 Desperate, you’re -1 effect on Resist, but this is the only place you’re -1 effect.
That doesn’t add anything creative to the story, it just drags things out because there are more rolls and more risk. I want to be a fan of the characters, and let them have it on a 4-5. 1-3 still leaves room for escalation and complication.
I see Controlled as “likely to succeed, but there’s a chance it could go wrong and you have to abandon or escalate.”
I don’t want to spiral down into arguing about words and what “better than perfect” means. I’m just saying that I think there’s a difference between a basic success, where you get what you want free and clear, and a critical success that sweetens the deal with further opportunity or security.
By contrast, getting some of what you want at a cost is not very successful; I’ll be the glass half empty guy and suggest that’s more like not succeeding, but not failing either.
Let the system work it’s magic on you… There is a charm in “you get what you want … but……”
Yeah, we did a lot of that. “You get close enough to see the gondola, but a skilled duelist of the Red Sash stands in the way.”
And, “You get the safe open, but the supernatural guardian is triggered and will be pursuing you.”
And, “You get the back of the wagon jimmied open, but realize there is a bluecoat inside.”
I know how it works. I used it. Didn’t amuse.
If a critical success is more than perfect, then I feel it should offer more than +1 effect; on a poor effect roll, that still won’t clear a 4 segment clock. That’s not very indicative of a more than perfect success.
I’d also add that you should be rolling dice less as well with a PbtA game. Let the players do things without rolling. Is the cutter attacking a simple guard? Guards dead move on to the real challenge. This helps make the players feel competent.
Michael Kennedy Yeah, that’s part of the abstracting. They seldom rolled to do A THING and more rolled to handle a grouping of things.
Like, they rolled Prowl once to clamber around on the rooftops and get away from their pursuers, instead of a roll to climb a building, and another to hide behind a chimney, and another to jump from one roof to the next, etc.
Where the players got frustrated is where something that they expected to take one roll ended up taking two, then three, escalating all the while and dragging on because they couldn’t close the deal and fill the clock.
I get where you are coming from. Though I will say that most PbtA style games are all about the “yes but”results, it’s the “buts” that keep it interesting.
That said I do agree having a -1 effect for controlled seems counter intuitive since that doesn’t apply to Risk style rolls
PS. Andrew Shields , about this phrase of your:”I suppose it is all about managing your expectations. I never played a PbtA game, and I don’t expect to, so I’m coming at this from a different direction.” I have to tell you that “standard” PbtA games, like Apocalypse World and Dungeon World are quite different from Blades. I hope you’ll try at least DW, it could be very cool, even if you aren’t exalted for this one.
AW / DW totally changed my method to play / master a RpG, and I hope you will find lot of coolness inside.
FWIW, I’m revising the action rolls right now as I’ve also noticed some issues with Controlled position and the success levels.
John Harper I look forward to seeing what you come up with!