I struggle with understanding quality. For a roll where there is no clock, just a simple roll, does it add 1 level of effect still? That seems big, and gets ambiguous now that there’s more than one level of quality.
For a simple roll, could it add more dice?
Long ago I suggested it could be interesting if quality granted +1 on your highest die roll. I still think that would get at both effect and coping with a very small dice pool.
I think the idea of restricting it to Effect is so that good tools help you do more, but you still need to be good enough to use them. It keeps the emphasis on personal skill.
It just doesn’t track for me. If you have a cutter with fine weapons in a big fight, then the fine weapon helps. In a simple roll, it doesn’t. Or, you can’t get a 1-3 result. However that works.
So fine weapons don’t help in a simple roll. That’s fine, it just means that situation is too simple for the quality of your perfectly-balanced sword to matter, you could just as easily have accomplished this with a prison shiv. It’s beneath the need for exquisite craftsmanship.
If you want your keenly-honed, masterwork blade to count, give it a challenge. Then you’ll see it shine.
One roll is still a challenge. It’s just a one-off immediate challenge. Maybe your weapon quality doesn’t matter in an Iaijutsu duel. Maybe it does.
I can see that you’ve got a reason it works for you, but it doesn’t work for me.
Pushed to the point of absurdity, a +3 quality object does nothing on a simple roll (or is always critical success, if it does add 1 level of effect each) but when filling a clock, does 4 segments even if you roll a 1.
Hm.
Why not allways use a two segment clock minimum ?
I’ve always assumed that an Effect Factor was not meant to be taken as a 1-for-1 bonus/malus to the Effect Level.
On QS3 (pag 12) the rules say:
“When assessing the effect level, consider three factors: Quality, Scale, and Potency.
If the PC has an advantage in a given factor, consider a higher effect level for their action.
If they have a disadvantage, consider a reduced effect level.”
So, if you think that a +3 Quality object matters to the action, you can raise the Effect Level of that action from Standard (2) to Great (3), or even (rarely) to Extreme (4).
More importantly, Effects are not just for ticking segments: if you decide to resolve a fight as a simple obstacle, the final Effect Level of the action (adjusted evaluating all the Effect Factors) gives you questions to answer in the fiction.
Following your example, if a Cutter resolves a fight as a simple obstacle with a Limited Effect, you can decide that he wins but the enemy manages to escape lightly wounded (questions: “How the effect is limited? What significant obstacle remains”).
If the Cutter gets a Standard Effect, you can decide that the enemy is simply killed (“How does the expected effect manifest? What’s left to do, if anything?”).
If the Cutter gets a Great Effect, maybe the enemy is killed swiftly and/or he manages to kill him in a way that can’t be traced back to him (“How is the effect increased? What extra benefit manifests?”)
Adam Saleh There IS a 2 segment clock minimum. One segment is a simple roll, and it gets filled even if you roll a 1. =)
MisterTia86 The question is not about how to resolve things with limited, standard, or great effects. The question is about how that works with quality for single rolls.
I believe Adam Saleh is suggesting that if it bothers you, you could never use a simple roll, but instead always use at least a 2-segment clock.
I’m not willing to give up simple rolls, they are really useful for lots of things. If the final rules don’t address quality affecting that roll, I’ll likely grant the player +1d for a quality item.
Andrew Shields maybe I’m mistaken, but Quality (as any of the Effect Factor) is just there to help the GM adjudicate the Effect Level. There’s no real “+X Quality”, it’s just a matter of thinking who as the edge for each Factor (there’s the example in the QS).
“Arlyn is picking the lock to a safehouse run by the Hive. Arlyn has fine lockpicks. However, the Hive is Tier III. The quality of their locks is much better than Arlyn’s tools.
She gets a reduced effect level to her lockpicking attempt. If Arlyn is able to spend extra time on the lock, she can gain
potency, thus counter-acting the reduction due to quality.”
So, Arlyn is at disadvantage on the Quality Factor (fine lockpicks are not good enough for the Tier III locks of the Hive): so that disadvantage would give Arlyn a -1 on Effect Level.
However, spending extra time on the lock, she would gain advantage on the Potency Factor (extra time is not counterbalanced by anything from the Hive’s locks), and that advantage would give her a +1 on Effect Level, basically eliminating the Quality disadvantage.
So, if the GM decide that this is a complex action, Arlyn would tick +0 segment (-1 for Quality disadvantage, +1 for Potency advantage).
If the GM decide that this is a simple action, the GM would leave the intended Effect Level (probably standard) unaffected.
Fictional positioning is a useful thing, it is true. That is one of the things I find most charming about this particular game. =)
MisterTia86 has it right. Quality modifies Effect. Effect applies to simple rolls as well as clocks. When you take action, you always have an effect! Is it limited, standard, or great? Quality is one factor in determining that.
You always answer the effect questions, regardless of simple or complex obstacle.
So if you are +1 effect on a simple roll and you roll a 1, does that mean it counts as a 4-5?
The way I see it the Quality applies only to the effects not to the rolls.
On a 1-3 none of the position (Controlled, Risky or Desperate) give you an effect (because you failed the action), so you won’t even apply the Quality.
On a 4+ whatever likely effect you assessed for the action (which is something you do before the roll, right after you’ve decided the character fictional position) gets bumped up by one category.
I’m not getting this. Maybe an example?
Ok, I’ll try (Sorry for the long post)
Garrett is sniping a guard with a fine bow.
The GM decides that:
-It’s a simple roll.
-It’s a Controlled Action (Garret is sniping from a safe position).
-The likely Effect is Standard (which I assume it’s the default likely Effect for many actions).
Garrett rolls…
If Garrett rolls a 1-3, the result for the Controlled Action is:
“You’re blocked, you hesitate, or you falter. Press on by seizing a Risky opportunity, or withdraw and try a different approach.”
In this case the GM could say:
“You take too much time aiming and the guard is turning around the corner, out of your sight. Do you want to try to move on the roof and take the shoot while trying to keep balance (Risky opportunity) or leave that be and try something else (different approach)?”
If Garrett rolls a 4-5, the result for the Controlled Action is:
“You do it, but there’s a consequence: it takes extra time, you have reduced effect, you suffer lesser harm, you end up in a risky position.”
In this case the GM could say:
“You shoot him just as he’s about tu turn around the corner (You do it), but the shot is kinda rushed (limited effect).”
So the likely Effect was Standard, but now it would become Limited (as the conquence suggest): luckly for Garrett, he has a Fine Bow, so that gives him an edge on the Quality Factor, bumping the final Effect back to Standard again.
The GM look at the Standard Effect questions and answer:
“The arrow pierces the guard in the back (How does the expected effect manifests?) and he drops dead, in a pool of blood (What’s left to do, if any?)”
If Garrett rolls a 6, the result for the Controlled Action is “You do it”.
In this case the GM could just say:
“You shoot him right before he turns around the corner (You do it)”
The likely Effect was Standard: luckly for Garrett, he has a Fine Bow, so that gives him an edge on the Quality Factor, bumping the final Effect to Great.
The GM look at the Great Effect questions and answer:
“The arrow pierce the guard in the head, killing him (How is the effect increased?), and it seems that his uniform is barely touched by the little blood flowing from the clean wound…does that give you any idea? the guy is kinda your size after all… (What extra benefit manifests?)”
If Garrett rolls a Critical, the result for the Controlled Action is “You do it, with increased effect”.
In this case the GM could just say:
“You snipe him before he turns around the corner (You do it with increased effect)”
The likely Effect was Standard, but Garrett got an “increased effect”, so he achieves a Great Effect: Garrett also has a Fine Bow (and so an edge on the Quality Factor), but the GM feels that an Extreme Effect is too much in this case (and a Great Effect is more than enough for the action)
The GM look at the Great Effect questions and answer…
So, if I understand the example correctly, effect increases by one in all circumstances EXCEPT a 1-3.
Yeah that’s my impression: basically, since the idea of an effect is “how impactful is your action”, if the action FAILS, it doesn’t get a chance to be impactful.
You can see it as something like “your tools don’t count if you don’t use them well”.
It was just confusing because when you’re filling clocks, even on a 1-3 you fill 1 segment. So if there are less than 2 to fill, the only reason to roll is to see what complications are involved.
I think the situation would be greatly clarified saying that on a simple roll you get +1 effect unless you roll 1-3 or a critical.
I don’t know about the old Quickstarts, but that rule is not there anymore (or maybe I can’t find it): now the rule just say that you fill segment equals to the effect level (1 for Limited, 2 for Standard, 3 for Great and 4 for Extreme)…so if you get a 1-3 (and no effect) you don’t fill any segment.
Hmm. I can see there’s confusion here.
The GM sets the possible effect level based on the situation (the effect factors). That’s the effect level you’ll have unless you roll a critical on your action, which gives +1 effect.
On a roll of 1-3, you don’t succeed at your action, so you have no effect.
John Harper so there was nothing wrong with my interpretation, right? English is not my first language and you can be a little hermetic sometimes… 😀
MisterTia86 Right! You are correct. And you’re right about my writing style, too. 🙂
Okay, so a GM sets an effect level. Success means, for example, you pass the guarded alley unseen. The situation is risky. The character in question has high quality shadowcloak that counts as a fine item.
If the player rolls 1-3, then the cloak doesn’t matter and the effect is not met; the character does not pass the guarded alley unseen, but must escalate, reconsider, etc.
If the player rolls 4-5, then the character would normally pass the guarded alley unseen but with a complication, EXCEPT this is where +1 effect with the cloak comes in, so instead the roll counts as a 6 and the character passes unseen with no complication.
If the player rolls a 6, then the character would normally pass the guarded alley unseen, but instead counts as a critical, so gets an extra advantage.
If the player rolls more than one 6, there is no increase in effect because critical success is the best possible.
Right?
Andrew Shields yes and no.
Yes, on a 1-3, you’re right.
No, on a 4+ the +1 is to the Effect, not the result of the dice.
If you roll a 4+ you use that result AS IT IS, BUT the GM applies the +1 to the Effect he has set before the roll.
I just don’t get the distinction.
Ok, I’ll try once more.
Normally, on a roll of 4-5 you have:
– An Effect (set by the GM)
– Consequences.
If you have the +1 Effect for the Quality of a Fine Item and roll 4-5 you’ll have:
– An Effect (set by the GM) increased by +1
– Consequences.
So if you roll 1-3, fine items don’t help at all.
If you roll 4-6, you have the consequences you normally would, but at +1 effect (as though they were a critical, but possibly with consequences.)
If you roll a critical, fine items don’t help at all.
I appreciate you guys working with me on this. I must say, though, I do not look forward to repeating this conversation with my players if they have questions about how it works. I might need to do something different, like give +1d to the roll instead.
Yes! But…
If you roll a Critical, fine items may helps, it just depends on what the Effect set by the GM was.
Let’s say that the GM thinks the likely Effect for your action is Limited.
If you roll a Critical you have:
-Increased Effect (so Standard instead of Limited).
If you have the +1 Effect for the Quality of a Fine Item and roll a Critical you’ll:
-Increased Effect increased by +1 (so Great instead of Limited).
I don’t know Andrew Shields I actually find this solution better than a +1d.
A straight bonus die is like saying that a better tool makes you more competent.
If you are not a surgeon does a Fine Scalpel make you better at surgery?
I think you’re just overthinking it too much.
Just give a +1 to the Effect on any roll (except 1-3).
If the final Effect would be Extreme you may consider it’s too much (Extreme Effects should be rare) and just leave a Great Effect.
That’s it.