A quick question:
The game talks about ‘turf’ in the abstract sometimes. Ironically, often on the ‘turf map’ where it is talking about it in a very gamey way. When “Lookouts” says “+1d to Survey or Hunt on your turf” what does it mean? Yes, one could reference the fiction, but do Thieves even HAVE “turf” in any sort of traditional fictional sense? If pressed, I would say that a crew of thieves’ “turf” was the area they worked, which would make it more like their Hunting Grounds, which are also A Thing.
This feels a little confusing.
I think of Hunting Grounds as areas that are good for pickpocketing and mugging, while turf is the gang’s overall zone of control, where it is understood that they pull heists and other gangs don’t, on pain of retribution.
The fiction for turf is territory belonging to another crew. Taking that yields abstract support and assets that are also fictional (citizens there know who’s in charge).
Hunting grounds is not theirs; that (presumably “The Drop”) belongs to a higher tier crew but they have been given permission to operate there without upsetting other factions.
If they have no turf because they’ve yet to seize any, they have none (other than the lair).
Source: p.13, 48 (QS 7.1)
I found it very clear but I also watched the Bloodletters AP and have been following development for about a year. That being said, I agree, and how much of a neighborhood to consider “one claim” could also use some detail
edit: clarity
Mark Cleveland Massengale while that is mostly how we’ve played it, I fail to see how you get there from the tiny scraps of information on those two pages.
It also remains super weird that thieves expand their “turf” that people respect them in by doing thief stuff. It doesn’t really follow, to me.
I agree the overlap between turf and hunting grounds is still hazy. Especially for Hawkers, whose equivalent is Territory, which is the same thing as turf.
But, expanding turf isn’t about just being thieves. If a crew of Shadows doesn’t want to expand their turf, they can just keep stealing to their hearts content. Expanding turf is about establishing the crew as an increasingly powerful criminal enterprise, one with territory and influence. They wouldn’t necessarily claim turf by doing thief stuff- they would claim it by seizing it from someone else (maybe via thief stuff, if possible.) If a crew of Shadows wants to world more power in the city, they’ll need to do more than just heist stuff.
Look at the Unseen- they’re definitely Shadows, and are the most powerful faction in Duskvol, thanks to their wide-ranging secret influence.
Well, whatever fiction I didn’t read I understood from crime fiction/real world experience. Also, I used reason to know that claims which benefit from turf cannot do so without turf.
I also +1ed your OP and conceded in the point I was making in an effort to agree with you. I was implying that my experience was atypical, not that you are wrong to bring it up (much the opposite). Sorry to have sounded combative.
I found the “Turf Claims” table on p. 64 useful. There you get a taste of unusual Turf Claims, like “The locals love you and wouldn’t have it otherwise”. The table states “For each, answer the question: What kind of operation would result in this claim?” No problem to get lots of ideas for scores from here or let the players have them.
Turf is territory that you control solidly. No other criminal or gang can operate there without you giving them permission — and usually paying you a tax. And often you get paid protection money from proprietors in your turf as well. You don’t necessarily do your thief jobs there, well except for protection racket extortion. Turf part at least mostly spelled out in the rules.
Hunting Grounds is less clear. But I always assumed it was places you can do your thieving or extortion or whatever without worrying that you’ll piss off another faction. Either this means you have an agreement with the faction that controls that area that you can work there, or that area is overlooked as it isn’t explicitly controlled by any one faction.
As an example, in my game I was running the crew completed a couple big scores for the Forgotten Gods. The first score the Forgotten Gods granted them permission to operate in their area which expanded the crews hunting grounds. The second score helped the Forgotten Gods expand into new territory and in return they gave the crew a piece of turf that they explicitly controlled.
The exchange of turf was basically… one day the citizens and criminals that lived or passed through the area know that they had to give alms to the weird beggars that spoke in tongues or bad things happens. And after the score and turf handoff, the crew moved in to control it. It wasn’t immediately noticeable to the citizens, they still give alms to the weird beggars, but behind the scene on agreement a portion of those alms collected in that area started lining the pockets of the crew. The bigger proprietors in the area were then given personal visits by the crew telling them who was in charge now. Basically they told these proprietors “You can stop paying alms to those beggars. Just give us money every month and we’ll make sure they don’t bother you.”
Maybe this is a question for a different thread, but how do the other playbooks’ Hunting Ground equivalents interact with the crew’s lair? Smugglers, for example, get to pick a Supply Line. Does that mean they always get a free downtime action to plan a score related to that Supply Line, or is it strictly limited to scores related to that Supply Line that originate or terminate in their turf? Definitely something I’m scratching my head about: the group I’m GMing decided to start as Smugglers!
Jack Shirai I’d say yes. If they’re running a smuggling job on their supply line then they already know the territory like the back of their hand, plus they likely already know who they need to pay off along the route.
The interesting and harder jobs are the ones that they can’t use their normal supply line for. Maybe it’s too weird and their handlers won’t go for it. Maybe it’s coming from a place far outside their normal route.
This is strange for me. Until I saw this thread, I hadn’t thought the terms confusing. I think of “turf” as the gang’s kingdom. When a gang takes over a city block as their turf, everyone knows it’s their territory. Other gangs know not to step foot in that area without permission. Meanwhile the citizens there know which gang controls their neighborhood. They probably pay some protection fees and vie for favor too. A criminal gang is only going to acquire turf in poorer areas–places where the government is not in control.
Hunting grounds aren’t about publicly known territory. They’re lucrative areas to pickpocket and steal shit. They’re disputed quietly. A gang of thieves that wants to send cutpurses and cat burglars into a particular wealthy neighborhood needs to first establish the right to do so by beating down the gang that’s already operating there. Hunting grounds are usually in areas which are controlled by the government, and it’s just the criminal underworld fighting each other to commit crimes in that area. They might even go so far as to pay the local authorities to look the other way.
A gang should keep its turf and its hunting grounds separate. If you want to hold turf long term you need loyal citizens. You don’t get that by stealing from them. Just watch mob movies that show the Don acting as the neighborhood philanthropist.