Any advice for handling large scale combat? We are talking the crew vs most of the Lampblacks.
Any advice for handling large scale combat? We are talking the crew vs most of the Lampblacks.
Any advice for handling large scale combat? We are talking the crew vs most of the Lampblacks.
Go back to basics. “What do you want to do? How are you going to do that?” and then have the rolls scale up. Instead of “You scale the wall” you get “You lead your cohort over the wall” or stuff like that. Scale the results, but keep the PCs rolling their Actions.
Depends what they are trying to do. Ask their plan and set some clocks. Use the clocks to tell the story.
Large scale combats would have the “minions” add to the potency of the rolls, no?
So if you’ve got 10 troops and they’ve got 80, your rolls are going to have limited effects, unless you find a way to increase the effect (via stress, desperate actions, etc.)
If you’re about even, then you’ll have the same potency, and other aspects, like quality, might dominate.
… I say, not having actually run a game myself yet.
Even large scale combat is a combination of clocks. Who is the leader? Give them a clock. Is there a wall or trap or ward they have to deal with? Give that a clock. Oh and of course give the gang a large clock. Likely then if they fuck up set a reinforcements clock or a Bluecoats clock.
And yes as Tony Demetriou says if they are fighting a bunch of people at a time they would definitely have less effect due to Scale. Their position might suffer too depending on the fiction they set up for how they are attacking.
One large (and maybe some more) clocks. Scale clearly adds or reduces effect. Taking strategic positions and initiative would improve position (clearly fighting all the Lampblacks would be certainly desperate).
I was thinking you just do small vignettes. The PCs have their combats and clocks – those clocks feed to an overall battle clock. So you represent scale here with a hierarchy of clocks.
I had this go down in a game. They got owned and had to leave behind their hideout when the 8-clock for “Getting cornered” filled.
Follow the fiction, and make one for each important NPCs health (4/4 ok, 3/4 tired, 2/4 hurt, 1/4 disabled, 0/4 dead), and one for the other Lampblacks that represents their collective health. Depending on the numbers involved, I might use multiple clocks for the “mooks”: I wouldn’t put more than an 8-clock for anything. So, that might mean grouping the others into squads of 4 or something (and having every other crit be a disabled Lampblack).
Unless they are on tier with the Lampblacks, then effect is probably reduced twice (once by scale, and again by quality) such that only a critical would have Any effect on the larger group. The effect is reduced twice if the leader has a group of thugs at his side too, but still at least once (because of quality)
Tell them good luck with that!
Clocks aren’t just ‘health’ they can represent agenda. What do the various elements of the Lampblacks want? Make clocks for them too, so when you get to describe a consequence you can tick down Bazo’s desire to resurrect the old gods, or his gang of cut throats want to mutilate Iruvian whores, or D’tangon the Bluecoats redemption in arresting any whisper he encounters.
These rub with tension against the traditional obstacle clocks in satisfying ways and allow for flashbacks amidst the chaos of full blown gang war.
When your gang fights another, state your objective eg:
• Massacre them
• Subdue them
• Drive them off
• Escape from them
• Forcefully take a mcGuffin from them
If they are likely to beat you (scale) take -1
If you are likely to beat them, take +1
And take it from there
Success: Achieve your objective with few casualties on your side.
Complications: More casualties, cost, danger, hard bargains.
Fail: lose your objective, major casualties.
Edit: More drawn out battles have multiple objectives, eg: Get in, Kick Ass, Get out. Or: Barge through, Capture the Boss, Parley, Get out. Once an objective is reached, figure out what the next one will be.
Question: What if you massacre the other gang – what happens to their faction?
Would the tier III strong-hold faction of thugs still be a tier III faction with a strong hold, even after you’ve killed off their thugs?
(And just assume that they do a quick recruitment drive, absorbing in other smaller gangs that were waiting to move up in the world, etc.)
Michael Yater what’s the crew’s tier? what cohorts do they have?
And if you have a Cutter who’s Not to be Trifled With, let them go nuts, and describe how they’re mowing through enemies.
Tony Demetriou a gang fight like that is definitely a score to reduce a faction’s hold (p 14). In the very least if they win the faction would drop to a tier III firm hold. If it was a total massacre I might give them that it dropped to tier III weak hold. As a Tier III gang is more than just a bunch of gang fighters it will take another score to drop their Tier to II — take out their drug den, smuggler operation, etc.
Tony Demetriou I can’t imagine that gang would still be a gang after you kill all of them. My group’s campaign doesn’t have the Crows anymore, just a tier I group of stragglers calling themselves the Buzzards led by a returned vampire Roric.
Also I’d add that gangs like the Lampblacks aren’t monolithic entities. They’re just named in the quickstart and start with more dudes than you. But like, 20-30 dudes. Not hundreds.
It’s your playground. Take the toys out of the packaging. 🙂
The scenario is this. The PCs were in the middle of the Lampblack hq having a meeting with Bazo. One of my PCs attacked Bazo. So it is litterally just the PCs, with all of the lampblacks between them and escaping
Sound like less of a large scale battle and more like a desperate assassination and escape. I wouldn’t make clocks for killing all the lampblacks, but that doesn’t seem like a reasonable goal. Maybe a clock for Holding the Door, Baszo Is Dead, Cornered and Escaped. If they want to stay and fight the whole gang to the death, I imagine they’ll end up left for dead in a canal, each with a brand new trauma (which is not a bad way to start a game honestly).
Michael Yater that seems more like an escape attempt rather than a kill all the Lampblacks gang war.
Guards Clock (they can tackle this through avoiding the guards using stealth or fighting their way out or combination of both)
Headquarters locks/wards/high wall/etc Clock
Maybe an Elite Guard clock?
Maybe toss on another Clock after they get out to avoid people tracking them down so that they can get back to their Lair without people finding out where their hideout is.
Just ask what their plan is to get out of their mess and then create appropriate clocks.
Adam Schwaninger At tier 2, each gang an group controls has about 20 individuals in it. Nothing says how many individual gangs the lampblacks control. There notable assets include a “Fearsome gang of legbreakers,” but they could easily have any number of less notable gangs.
Once you answer “why hasn’t anyone done this before?” to a satisfying degree for yourself, you should have some level ground to start on.
I’d figure Baszo, if he’s just “attacked” and not “dead as crap now”, well, he’s going to want to get away. He’s got thugs for fighting people. He’s also Tier 2 with weak hold, so he’s desperate despite what he may portray. Losing face by running might be the straw that breaks his gang’s back. Pride before the fall and so on.
Overbearing through sheer numbers is going to probably be a major advantage unless your Cutter (Silas, right?) has that Not to Be Trifled With ability. Just hold them down and sit on them. Kill the whispers. Would they have alchemicals at hand? Probably not, depends on the engagement roll right? But if given reasonable time, it’s not unfair to say the Lampblacks can probably lay hands on some drown powder and basically tear gas the room and sort it out.
I’m interested to see what kind of flashback plans they come up with to turn this seeming-debacle into a cunning plan in hindsight. 🙂
Mark Griffin I have grossly misinterpreted that section of the rules then. My god.
Worldview shattered. 🙂
I always pictured the lampblacks having a hundred guys or so, but that’s really up to you in your game.
Yeah I figured I will basically have to tell my players that killing all the Lampblacks just isnt a possibility for them at this time. Escape is possible, but most rolls will probably be at desperate position with limited effect until they can establish some sort of dominate position to fight from. The Cutter does have Not to be Trifled With so that will help if the lampblacks come at them in small groups at a time, but with all of them there they still out class even him in scale. So maybe what we can do, is have one clock for Bazo himself. Since it is the current goal of the Cutter to murder him until he is dead. There are 4 heavy armed guards right outside the office so they will join that scuffle basically immediately. Did i mention all the lampbacks are at heavy load right now because they are just recovering from a Red Sash attack and are totally ready for trouble? My word my PCs are in a bad spot right now. It’ll be trauma Tuesday for everyone. But hey, on the bright side look at all this XP you get for rolling desperate actions.
I wouldn’t tell them something is impossible, it’s just may not be a good idea. But hey, with a crazy enough plan and nothing but sixes, a crew in blades can topple the world.
Remember you can call for resistance rolls before the PC gets an action to represent overwhelming odds or skill. It might not be appropriate for Rando Bodyguard Thug #3, but as a whole it’s not necessarily bad form for the Lampblacks to have some contingencies in place.
Where I’ve been tripped up is narrating effects that don’t affect a clock. A clock is easy; you fill it to some degree or don’t. It’s when a player wants to say, skirmish three thugs who jumped them, stating they want to defeat them in one action, which to me is possible.
6 is easy – you do it, no downside.
4-5: you do it, but you could easily call for limited effect, such as only taking down one thug. Likely you’re desperate too, so while you’re killing their friend, the other 2 thugs manage to plunge knives into your back (make a resistance roll?). Then you’d keep this going.
1-3: Dude, you don’t do it. They circle you and while one slashes your weapon arm, the others dogpile you from behind and shiv you a dozen times.
Hmm, I see. Cool. Like everything, it’s going to take practice. It was the same when learning how to adjudicate symbols in the FFG Star Wars line.
Thanks for all the advice guys. You can tune in on September 6th at 6:30PST on twitch.tv/friendlyfiretv to see the results . 🙂
Doesn’t look like anyone has said this yet so I’ll throw in: morale. Regardless of how else you handle a large fight, both sides should have a morale clock. If the clock gets filled, that side breaks and runs. That gives the PCs a way to matter more. Players can do flashback actions of minor mayhem and subterfuge that result in the opposing side starting the battle with their morale already harmed. Or, if those actions fail on the attempt, the other side starts with extra wind in their sails.
Remember that in warfare, even on a small scale, the best way to win is to break your enemy’s spirit. Historically, most battles ended when one side broke and ran.