Can we please have an honest discussion with the developers about stretch goals?
I’m not trying to start a fight, and I dearly hope this doesn’t get me banned, but it’s worth addressing somewhere beyond the Kickstarter comments section. The game is stellar; everyone here loves it a lot. But it’s also a project that funded tens of thousands of dollars more than its initial goal, and it did so in part thanks to lots of awesome stretch goals that sounded really, really exciting. The core game has been out for nearly a year and a half now, and it’s great! And Vigilantes is great, and Scum & Villainy is a lot of fun, and the beta for Blades Against Darkness is really interesting… and then everything else trails off.
Bluecoats was shooting for an August of last year release, and now we’re nearly at August of this year. Quite a few others were mentioned to be in progress or starting writing imminently, with no word since. Folks who’ve inquired after them have been told that they’re hear when there’s news, but it’s tough to go through months and rapidly approaching a year of radio silence without so much as a peep.
Much more distressing is some of the comments on the KS page. Stretch goals drove a lot of the crowdfunding, and that excitements has kept a lot of people interested ever since. Hearing that they’re “not ironclad promises of 100% certain delivery — they’re ideas for additional related projects that can be started because of the success of the KS” and that they’re “they’re pretty much on the honor system to be delivered now” is a much bigger deal than should be mentioned off-hand in a buried comment thread. “This has worked out well in a few instances, and badly in others” is a frightening sentiment to hear.
Stretches of several months without communication is worrying but manageable; paired with the revelation that there’s no guarantee the stretch goal content is coming and it throws a whole lot of doubt into the mix. If there’s content that is not going to happen, or is in rocky shape, that’s just as newsworthy as when something is finally done enough to play.
I’m not here to start a fight, or to make anyone look bad. I just want to know what’s going on, because we’ve heard very little, and if there’s things my group should stop holding out hope for, then I’d appreciate knowing as much.
I can’t force other authors to produce content. I can only control my own work.
I’m delivering 100% of the stretch goals that I have direct control over. They’re taking a long time. If I could produce them any faster I absolutely would.
IF any of the authors of the other stretch goals bow out of their commitments, I will replace them with other authors so those stretch goals will be completed.
When I said that thing about “not an ironclad promise” I meant that those particular authors might not actually deliver on the work. I can’t force them to. But if they don’t, I will make good on the stretch goal in any way I can.
I hope that’s clear.
Note to self: gather more blackmail material on Sage Latorra.
Benjamin Davis, that’s funny. 😁
Bribery with pie or other baked goods might work.
Wait a minute your still delivering kick starter content in blades in thr dark? I assumed youd finished and moved on to new projects like a year ago.
Luke Cartner There’s about ten setting hacks and several more crew types coming.
Speaking as someone who has produced one Kickstarter and studied dozens, if a collaborator is reaching a one-year late mark they should be warned about the need to find a replacement. Waiting for them to bow out on their own opens a creator up to potential Far West scenarios that I personally would do anything to avoid.
John Harper Is there any chance of an update where you go down the list and check in on each one, to say where they’re at? There was one a fair while ago that described a few in early playtesting or writing.
Also, if I may ask; if the funding raised to hit each stretch goal actually had nothing to do with it getting made… what was that money for?https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9mJzwFp7Iobs7U510uI6ZKz4RWrNnaZVodqH4De0okzegzGvgAjSsps9GyjAkiQjVGY65ZV6Hgep0V8zXBQ-Kah7BT11UQZlHqc=s0
That’s not how Kickstarter works. You don’t pay for a service, and unlocking stretch goals does not pay for the content of those stretch goals. Contributing money pays for the development of the game and for covering the cost for the final product. Stretch goals are extra, that’s why they’re not included in the base package.
I would never back a project based on some far-out stretch goals by third-party authors, I would back it for the actual core thing that’s being funded. (Disclaimer: I’m not a backer of Blades).
Jakob Oesinghaus See, but if the wording is “at this level of funding, we unlock this content,” then that implies there’s some relationship between the money and the content. If it worked out that it was instead “at this level of funding, I ask someone to do this for free and now have more money,” you can see why that’s frustrating.
Lex Permann: While I consider this to be an unfulfilled Kickstarter, I think “At this level, sufficient interest has been established that [Luminary] agrees to do [X]” is a perfectly valid framing of a stretch goal. I think some of the ire should be directed at authors who agreed to make something and have failed to do so.
Parker Emerson I agree, but I also feel that some of the remarkable over-budget funding should’ve gone to making promised content a reality. I spoke briefly to Jason Morningstar about the status of Coneycatchers, and his answer is probably everyone’s: “It takes a backseat to paid work.” That’s why we have one stretch goal three years after funding.
Jakob Oesinghaus Re: “I would never back a project based on some far-out stretch goals by third-party authors”
I (and supposedly some other backers) would’ve been more restrained backing a project which states “please be aware that all the extra goodies we plan to do are on a ‘maaaaybe’ basis” (and volunteer work makes a significant ‘maybe’ to me).
Parker Emerson Re: “I think some of the ire should be directed at authors who agreed to make something and have failed to do so.”
They deserve absolutely no ire. They agreed to perhaps do something, they are perhaps doing it, and backers are perhaps getting it. “Volunteer jobs get put on the back burner when you have bills to pay” is a perfectly reasonable and logical approach. This is between them and Harper anyway, it’s the ‘perhaps’ part I didn’t know about beforehand that makes me frown.
As I said on the KS comments, this kind of trade of work among designers was very common on RPG kickstarters. I did work for Dungeon World, Undying, and some other KS projects without pay. My friends volunteered to make stuff for my project, so I said yes. Putting that kind of extra content up as a stretch goal was the default method for KS projects in my circle at the time.
Obviously, it’s not ideal and could have been communicated better, but it was so common and there hadn’t been any backlash to it, so no one thought to lay it out explicitly.
I’m totally willing to pay stretch goal authors if that will help them put the work on the top of their queue. I have zero problem doing that, even though that wasn’t the original deal.
I just want the creators to make the things they want to make and for the backers to get the stretch goals. I’m willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.
Lex. A couple of things.
“That’s why we have one stretch goal three years after funding.”
That’s not why.
For one, the game itself took several years to come out (the final version was almost march of last year). If you’ve tried writing a 360 page book you’ll understand how much effort it takes to put out something of that magnitude. The fact that John pulled it off in two years while doing all his own art is impressive. The fact that he hasn’t gotten a second one out is not shocking to me at all now that I’ve been through that crucible.
Some of the hackers/strech-goal-writers were free as soon as the KS ended, but for many (and I’m in the mix) there was a huge pause as the rules kept changing regularly, and folks took a step back till the game finalized. I know at least 3 hacks that didn’t go for any sort of forward motion in that time (Coneycatchers forex had a playable demo with the first ruleset, the one with rolled effect … you can see the amount of changes that would be needed to catch it up).
In two years that it took for rules to settle, I know two stretch-goal authors that have had kids, some that have been through grad school, and many that have pressing jobs and other commitments that have cropped up. The thing about big projects is that they take time. And priorities and life situations change meaning someone that thought they could just whip off a quick hack just can’t at this moment.
So just to wrap back—”just over a year since final rules release, folks haven’t managed to write a full book” doesn’t sound quite as dramatic.
Two—for many of us we thought we’d smash out a couple quick sheets and that was the end of our commitment. … … … eyes that 360 page pdf_ I’m not sure anyone was ready for what hacking this entails any more than PbtA authors suspect the amount of work a full game takes.
Three—yeah John didn’t pay me to do goals for him out of his KS budget. It’s true! I was going to do them anyway because I was excited. I wasn’t offered a chance to “work for exposure” I volunteered to help him out at the time.
I know this is going to sound weird, but a lot of us indie authors do this for each other’s projects. We want to see the project succeed and we volunteer some time to help that.
He doesn’t own the material I’ve written. He has however repeatedly helped with layout, coaching, playtests, support, hype, etc. And doing the goals has actually gotten us a lot of support—the first product has paid for it’s own art and layout. We’ll see how the second does.
SO. You’re not super wrong to ask for updates imo. I do speak to a lot of the authors on the regular for other reasons, and I know most of the projects are in motion in one way or another (there’s about 3 I know nothing about, the rest I’m not terribly worried). But asking for some ironclad schedule, or demanding things be finished is probably not going to happen. Not on this project, and not on other KSes.
This seems at best misleading and at worst scammy. If a creator writes [If I get this amount, we will unlock this setting] that ties the money directly to the stretch goal. That behind the scenes was unpaid work without any form of written contract I find scandalous.
Like others have said: If it was stated: “Person X expressed interest to write Y because this KS is successful” it would not have had the impact as Stretchgoals tied to money are. Becaue the latter strongly implies monetary motivation and a writing contract. For many, me included, they are an incentive to back at all or increase their pledge. So yea, I feel cheated.
I appreciate the replies both, John and Stras. I don’t have the word for a proper thanks right now, but communication and clarity are all I wanted, and I’m more than happy to have some now. I’m excited to see more great things going forward. I think everyone else is, too.
I totally understand your POV, Marcus. I’m sorry for causing frustration. I really don’t see this as “scammy”, though. It was the culture of KS at the time. Everyone made stuff for each other (without pay) and the content was presented as stretch goals. I can think of a dozen KS projects that did this, off the top of my head. (Not saying it’s a good practice, just saying it was an unconsidered default.)
I agree that communicating the situation clearly would have been better. It was such a default that it didn’t occur to me — or to other KS projects doing the same thing. That’s how stretch goals were done.
If I can do anything now to make the situation right with you, I’m happy to listen.
Just keep posting updates and follow up with people where Stretchgoals are at. And if someone can’t write it maybe offer to pay them from the KS funds you received for the stretchgoals in the first place, if the problem is that cash generating projects take precedent for them ( which is of course always the obvious choice to make for them). Or find a replacement. Honest and regular updates on Stretch Goal status is most important though.
Thanks for the feedback, Marcus.
Question: I usually don’t update because the information is “nothing has changed.” Would updates like that be useful to you?
Well, any update is better than none so backers know stuff is still being worked on. No need to do it weekly, but every two month would be nice. And I would hope some progress reports will be available.Thank you for listening!
When the process hits a stall without any future estimates, that’s probably a problem worth at least discussing in more detail than “not much is happening”.
(I mean, I somewhat can see it as a backers’ problem, even when a creator does not look at it as such.)
Marcus: Thanks.
Alexander: Good point!
Most of what I would say would echo other people: I can get the anger over not explicitly knowing these stretch goals would be unfunded donations, this was typical practice for KS at the time and a blind spot between funders and creators, the “three years” timeline from those upset is misleading since Blades was finalized about 14 months ago, more communication going forward would make sense, etc.
I just want to add three things.
One: If any of the creators are doing more than “here is a 20 page flavor re-skin in a different setting” that is going to take serious time. As someone working on a FitD game, between designing, writing, play testing, reworking, layout, copyediting, etc., it is a huge investment of time and energy and can be unpredictable. I think it’s really hard to appreciate until you actually do it.
Two: I prefer the stretch goals that put in that extra work, even if that means extra time. Having Scum & Villainy as its own game with ship mechanics and gambits and other additions is awesome; the fact Stras got it out so quickly is really impressive. I am way more excited about Blades Against Darkness now that I’ve seen some of its new systems.
Three: I think some expectations for KS TTRPGs are set by Kevin Crawford. He recently stated that some of his productivity is because he uses a simple and well established game system, OSR. Forged in the Dark is not well established or simple; comparing development between the two or expecting the same speed of development is unfair. (Granted, this may be an unconscious expectation on the part of many people.)
Hey, stretch goal author who hasn’t delivered his stuff here!
So, why haven’t I?
Cause life, which I know is not a satisfying answer. But this isn’t really about me at the moment, so let’s move on.
What would have made me deliver sooner?
Definitely not having money attached. Any amount John could have reasonably offered me for my work would be small enough I would not be any more likely to get it done earlier.
I do think that John (and many other KS creators) could benefit from some better project management. I’ve had a few check ins with John (or Sean), which generally unstick me when they happen, so more of those would be great.
John Harper More updates, even if they don’t contain substantial news, would be a great help. You did one a while back that went down most of the list and stated where each project was at – starting writing soon, in alpha playtesting, etc – and that was lovely. Especially given that we haven’t heard after some of them in quite some time.
I guess a broad “State of the Empire” address might help reassure people, but in general, I find updates that don’t tell me anything new more annoying than helpful.
There was a stretch goal of a novel set in Doskvol, and while that fell through, John brought me on board to do some official fiction for the setting. We’re currently working on the first novel to make sure it’s a harmonious fit to the setting. For those who back my Patreon to offer support while I’m writing, they can read the almost-final draft, so we know it exists.
Meanwhile I’m steaming ahead on the second novel, we’re five chapters in. I’m posting it as serial fiction here.
patreon.com – Andrew Shields is creating Serial Fiction | Patreon
Would a quarterly update satisfy folks?
Speaking for myself, I see Kickstarter participation as a risk I take to get a front-seat and fund cool projects that might not otherwise see daylight. So long as the base project is done, I’m not worried about stretch goals unless they are paid-for add-ons for an additional fee over the pledge amount. Otherwise they’re gravy.
Moreover, the core Blades product so far exceeded my expectations I’d have been fine with just it by itself, but I’ve gotten S&V, Radicals, Vigilantes, and a ton of other awesome free content people are making and posting online because the SRD is available. I understand how people can view the entirety in a manner similar to a contractual purchase, but it’s explicitly not so, by the terms of KS itself. That may be the attorney in me talking, but it’s how I look at it. I got the base promise filled and a bunch of extras, so I’m very happy. If Coneycatchers never comes out, that’d be a pity, but I don’t feel cheated in any respect. YMMV, of course.