Starting an S&V game soon and I have a question about how tier and effect works:
When pushing for effect, using fine items, and/or gaining potency from moves, and then calculating against the opponent’s faction tier, do you add up all the factors specifically/mathematically and then compare them directly against each other, or do you keep a more loose assessment of the factors? Using an example from the book:
“Hayley is picking the lock to a Malklaith warehouse. Her crew quality is I and she has fine lockpicks– she’s at Tier II. Malklaith is Tier III. Hayley is outclassed in quality, so her effect on the lock will be limited.”
In this example, it’s obvious why Hayley will have limited effect, and that if she then pushed for effect, she’d go up to Standard. However, what if the warehouse were owned by the Guild of Engineers, a Tier V faction? Would the initial calculation factor in the wider disparity between Tiers, or no? The example says the hit to effect comes from being “outclassed in quality,” but not necessarily because of the degree of the disparity. Does it matter how much a character is outclassed, or simply that they are?
I’m thinking specifically in the case of comparing quality and tier, and assuming there aren’t other clear dominant factors, such as in the example of a character trying to fire a gun at a large ship, where the difference in scale clearly makes the action not only limited, but impossible.
In other words, could the difference in the example be stated as: Hayley is Tier II, Malklaith is Tier III, therefore Hayley is at a -1 disadvantage, so her effect changes -1, from standard to limited? Then if Hayley were up against a Tier V faction, the difference would be -3, and her effect would go down from standard, to limited, to impossible (stopping there, assuming things can’t be extra impossible). Then she could push for effect and come back up to limited?
Or would you say that although there’s a wide disparity in Hayley and the Guild’s qualities, this isn’t an unpickable lock, so the action isn’t impossible, and her effect will still only be limited to begin with?
Practically speaking, does a crew basically need to entirely avoid dealing with factions that are any more than 1 or 2 tiers higher in quality than they are, since the disparity in quality is constantly going to make any action impossible to begin with, and even pushing yourself or gaining effect from other sources is likely to have you achieving limited effect at best?
Or do you always have tools at your disposal to stand up to even the highest tier factions, so that going up against a higher quality faction is generally a disadvantage, but not supposed to be a complete non-starter? In which case it’s more likely that you’ll generally be starting with limited effect, which you can then increase to standard?
I think of it as more towards the “sometimes, things are just impossible” end.
This has been answered before, but I forget where. From my understanding and memory, you would need extra preparation
(My idea is an 8 piece clock for every Tier higher and use 1 asset for every Tier higher to help with the job)
Hayley is Tier 1 +1 for her tools. Guild of Engineers is Tier 5.
8 piece clock for gaining info on the guards, lay out of the place, and location of the safe.
8 piece clock for gaining a disguise/distraction.
8 piece clock for gaining info on what type of safe.
3 assets help her pull off the job.
Then Hayley would be Tier 5 for a limited amount of time for this job.
Toimu This is interesting, thanks! I like the idea of nothing being out of reach if the players/characters dedicate themselves sufficiently to it.
.
Loose assessment for factors; you can mathematically compare the same factor (like quality/status +tools), but what effect you decide counting all the factor is just an assessment, also because some factors maybe dominant or more relevant.
About pushing for effect: if I recall correctly, it’s not a factor (unless there’s something different in S&V) it’s a straight +1 effect.
I just reduce their effect to zero, then let them push themselves for limited effect (since the push happens after crimping the initial effect of zero). This means that the crew really wants to avoid getting into trouble with factions too out of reach, since a lot of the rolls in the heist will cost them stress just for limited effect.
Or do a setup score to achieve special items with higher tier to use in the big score.
Brock McCord You have the right of it. Even higher tier doesn’t make it “less effect”. Ask yourself if the tier is so dominant that the roll is even possible. If the guild is so high maybe it isn’t.
A good example of this is in Star Wars. The Empire is probably a very high tier, but the rogues push themselves to overcome doors all the time (R2D2 is clearly good at this). Even though he’s outclassed and the empire regularly unveils great tech.
Also consider if they’re using their super high guild tech on that lock, or if it’s a simple locker >_> Sometimes just because a faction is Tier 5 and their gear defaults to 5 but not everything is top notch that they own (finding a place they are NOT using their best stuff might be a good downtime action, or part of the job setup, or a flashback etc).
Someone already covered snagging some higher tier gear for jobs above.
Last bit of suggestion I have is: remember that rolls change fictional positions (you shouldn’t just roll rig over and over till you fill a clock). So if they have less effect, they might be willing to take a risk to get higher effect and the risk is it takes time and someone will come in. Ep 4 has a great scene like this where folks have to mug some guards, and talk their way out of trouble while R2 and 3PO find where Leia is.
Let me know if that’s unclear or if you have any more questions!
Stras Acimovic No that’s all very helpful, thank you!
It feels like this is one of these things that there isn’t necessarily a single hard and fast rule for, and it’ll come down to the general vibe/fictional positioning, finding a way to work around tier disparities, what the table feels is appropriate for a given scenario, etc.