Vigilantes Draft 1.15
Oh goodness, so many changes this time around. It’s still not done, but we’re at least 8.1 compatible right now.
If you have the time to look it over, I’d love thoughts on any of the following:
1. Should vigilantes have gangs at all? If they are removed (and only experts are allowed as cohorts) should I give them something else to replace them?
2. Which Claims should be removed. Currently 3 or 4 should be replaced with Turf. Which ones don’t work?
3. Uncanny Preparation. Should I make the flashback free as well?
4. I want to make a list of Vigilante opportunities. Let’s make 18 of them!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aaq63f18df5zzgu/Vigilantes_draft_1.15.pdf?dl=0
If you’re curious, here’s the list of all the changes from 1.14
What if instead of gangs it were something like packs of civilians that are useful in a pinch, neighborhood watch favors? Think of the super hero cliche of civilians standing in the villains path protecting the downed hero or a mod of civies carrying the hero to safety at the last moment. They might not be as universally flexible as a gang but they could have a more specific function.
The setting might not quite allow for Spider-man 2 style civilians carrying your vigilante on their shoulders out of harms way, but maybe your group of life long neighborhood residents like you enough to hurl some rotten food at the gangs long enough to provide you some advantages.
That kind of neighborhood watch support is the closest thing I can think of to a “good guy” version of a gang.
Chris McDonald, yeah I like that idea. It’s what I was going for with the Emboldened Citizens claim (that and I wanted a juxtaposition to the Bravos Terrified Citizens). The claim makes the citizens supplemental to a gang though as I can’t really imagine vigilantes sending in Citizens to fight for them.
Sean Nittner yeah thats why I kind of thought that the uses of having a vigilante gang would be very different, it would lean to be less send people to fight for you and more them being distractions or motivators which the mechanics of the game don’t totally lean towards naturally supporting. It’s probably better as a claim
Not what you were asking, as I haven’t gotten to play yet, but on the crew sheet, “Uncanny preperation” is spelled wrong, as it should be “preparation” and “automatically” is misspelled. Under Thorn In Your Side, “against” is misspelled. Friends in Low Places, “Independent” is misspelled. The Emboldened Citizens claim references Braves rather than Bravos, and the Blackmail claim misspelled “incarcerated.”
To actually answer the questions, I think vigilantes should totally have cohorts because the thing that keeps those in power – underworld or political – is the acceptance of the citizenry, and cohorts are creating a mob who will stand up and fight. Power for the people and whatnot. Personally I’d remove Wealthy Patron, the Rep bonus ones, and maybe the Armory. I’d give them one free flashback where you automatically succeed, instead of two where you succeed but they have a cost. But like I said, I haven’t gotten to play Vigilantes, so… my two cents but take them with a hunk of salt 🙂
1. Why shouldn’t they have gangs? My previous group of vigilantes got their gang of braves from an illegal fighting pit set up in an abandoned workhouse in Coalridge. Our Cutter ended up being a hero of the abused working class folks who gathered there, and they didn’t mind fighting for him at all, so the advance made a lot of sense.
2. Local Heroes: Is using this claim optional? Because if one is at risk of overindulging, it may actually be seen as a disadvantageous claim. Either way, it would be less useful as time went on.
Safe Houses: It’s not very clear what this claim actually does. It feels like a fictional permission that I don’t feel like a group should necessarily have to work toward on a claim map.
Fierce Allies: Something about it just strikes me the wrong way. Wish I could say what it was. It might be that some groups could be interested in having unloyal cohorts, so they would have to purposely avoid that claim, but that’s not that big an issue.
3. Considering that that the preparation is “uncanny,” and that the setup action has to be a flashback, I’d vote that it probably should be free. I don’t feel super strongly about this though.
4.
1. A poor family approaches you, seeking vengeance on another faction for the death of a loved one.
2. A group of corrupt Bluecoats “lost” important evidence for putting away a criminal noble.
3. The Inspectors are putting together a case, but are still missing a key piece of evidence they can’t get their hands on.
4. A king pin in Ironhook just got released, and he needs to be taken down before he completely disappears into the shadows.
5. A dispatch of Bluecoats are about to walk in to a trap, and they need help whether they know it or not.
6. Some Skovlander refugees have started pushing back against their oppressors, and things are likely to come to a violent head soon.
These are my two cents.
1) Yeah, they should totally get gangs. Stand up for the workers, and maybe some take-no-shit guys from the packing plant show up with prybars and knives and are ready to back you up.
3) I’d be comfortable making it free, but I really like the fiction of so much prep work just panning out all the time.
I need to put a lot more thought into the rest, but those are my off the cuff thoughts.
Thanks Etrius MacGuffin, man is it rough to run spell checks on these sheets but shouldn’t have forgotten to do it after all those changes. I’ll update those misspellings. Emboldened Citizens isn’t meant to say Bravos (Braves are a gang type for Vigilantes), but it is in reference to the Bravos’ Terrorized Citizens.
I’m not suggesting removing cohorts from Vigilantes, just gangs. I think experts are perfect for them, but gangs don’t really fit in my vision. As for the claims votes and special ability considerations, thanks. I’ll add that into the soup of ideas.
Thanks Blaze Azelski, good stuff!
Thanks Timothy Walsh.
The citizenry stuff makes me think of it almost more of a “Patron” type deal where one of the Districts Citizens become the Patron, something like “One of Us.” (OR that ability that treats +3 factions as turf would be interesting here as well) I really like the idea that while they may have Protected Grounds, full on “turf” as the underworld would recognize is hard to come by.
I’m on the fence on whether or not “normal citizens” would be listed as cohorts for the vigilantes though. Outside of “neighborhood watch” I’m not coming up w/ many examples ((though I’ve given it much less thought than you)).
Overall update looks great! Thanks for sharing a draft of it!
“Weaken a higher tier faction,…” as a XP trigger seems to overlap with “Contend with challenges above your current station”. Is the “higher” there to prevent beating down on low tier criminals instead of going for the big guys?
to your questions:
1. I don’t see an issue with gangs. While I am not a fan of Braves they can make for interesting choices. Also depending on how dark the Vigilantes are I could see a group of regular Bravos enforcing the peace and order in a street.
2. I’m not sure I understand the reason behind the BLACKMAIL mechanics. Maybe make that a special ability instead?
ARMORY seems over the top. quality stacking is already a thing in the game, especially for weapons. No real need for another +1 weapon quality.
FIERCE ALLIES feels like a no brain option. Loyal is probably one of the strongest (and boring) cohort options in the game. I don’t like the idea of every cohort being loyal.
I like Doskvol’s most wanted, but the position on the claim sheet should probably be at the side and not a central point.
How does SECRET PATHWAYS interact with the crew upgrade “Subterranean Routes”? Seems somewhat redundant.
[edit: in general i find +1d to engagement rolls a pretty boring and uninteresting claim, i’d prefer others]
3. Automatic Success is pretty strong. Stress costs still limit the scope of the flashback. If flashbacks still incur stress costs the ability will also be used for small flashbacks and not saved for the really complicated ones you’d pay 3-4 stress for.
I’m 12 session in a Vigilante campaign (as a GM) and I was SO waiting for this (in the meantime, I had to adapt your old Vigilantes version and ended up making a lot of changes); here’s what I gathered from my experiences so far:
1) GANGS
Keeping Gangs gives Vigilantes the option to be more akin to a group of “revolutionaries” or a “justice movement” who gather followers (as my players are doing right now): so, if your vision for this type of crew allows for that, you should totally keep them. Maybe (and I thought about this for a while) they should be limited to just 1 Gang?
2) CLAIMS
I agree with Heiko Qd on Fierce Allies, Armory and Blackmail. Also, Safe Houses seems a little too vague.
3) UNCANNY PREPARATION
Free flashbacks might be a little too much. The idea behind this ability is cool, but I feel like the automatic success is kinda boring. Maybe a +1d on any setup action done via flashback?
Sean Nittner I don’t know if you’re interested in the claims/special abilities that I’ve used for my Vigilantes campaign, but if you are I can translate them (I’m italian) and put them here.
Definitely have gangs as an option. Even Batman resorts to gangs eventually in Dark Knight Returns.
MisterTia86 Thanks, id love to see your claims.
Regarding Uncanny Prep, there are two things going on here. 1) I don’t find that people use flashbacks very often, even when prompted with the offer. 2) because I’m limiting it to setup actions this move is essentially saying you have fiction permission to improve your position or effect twice per session. If it costs stress (0-2) then that isn’t much different then someone pushing themselves (2 stress, 0 if they have special armor that works for this, 1/score).
Because I want to encourage the flashback, I’m more inclined to limit it in other ways. How does this sound:
Twice per session when in a Desperate situation, Vigilantes may improve their effect or position as though they had done a setup action. Describe a flashback that gives you the advantage now.
I like the rephrasing, and the explicit retelling of what the setup can give your group. (for Uncanny Prep).
I’ve read it and thought about it a few times now, but the “Friends in Low Places” seems very…. underwhelming? As far as abilities, it seems like a slightly better crew upgrade.
Really enjoying the playset. And, really sorry to pile on the typos, but this one might sneak past your spell check: “Doksvol” instead of “Doskvol”
Ben Wright, yeah, I’ve re-written that one a few times and still not 100% pleased with it myself. Maybe I’ll move it down to a upgrades, makes sense.
Maybe an ability that gives some “immunity” or bolsters standing/effect(s) with the law, perhaps giving some way to more easily turn the law towards baddies? Something like “Friends in High Places”?
Typo: page 5, “Acquire and asset.”
Also, is Feared and Loathed only supposed to affect criminals or does it affect citizenry too? Burning Every Bridge makes in sound like the former, but I wonder if the intent is the latter as that seems to make more fictional sense to me.
I kind of like the idea of only having experts as cohorts, but I can see that’s a less popular opinion. You’ve encouraged people to have experts with one of the crew upgrades that makes them all professional, but maybe if your vision was to have all cohorts be experts, maybe you could make it so that there is something along the lines of “Tight Knit Gang: Your crew can only have expert cohorts, but all cohorts are elite.” I haven’t played enough to know if that is balanced or not though.
Jason Lee, thanks typo fixed.
Burning every Bridge says “every criminal” gang so I think that should exclude the citizens. Think I should change it to “underworld faction” so that it matches faction list category? It’s okay if the Vigilantes are hated by the citizens as well (that happens) but isn’t necessary for the move to work.
Thanks to everyone who has provided such great feedback and ideas. I’ve made enough changes that I’m going to start new thread. Watch the skies for Vigilantes 1.16!
Sean Nittner It says that once they have weakened the hold of all criminal gangs, they become universally feared and loathed. It’s the universally that was throwing me. I wouldn’t want to free the citizens from criminals, only to have them view us as evil overlords.
Okay, new thread created. Moving the convo over here: plus.google.com – Vigilantes Draft 1.16 Having received fantastic feedback from the 1.15 draft…