I have a rules question, about Tiers and Quality.
Ryker, a novice cutter (Tier 0) but with a fine blade (+1 quality) goes up against a single thug of the Grinders (a Tier 2 gang).
If I’m reading this correctly, Ryker’s blade allows him to operate it as a Tier 1 device, but then the Tier disparity (2 vs 1) would only allow him to achieve limited effects against the thug. Without his precious blade, he would start out as being unable to affect the thug at all, correct?
Assuming no pushing or critical – did I read that right?
Yep, that’s right.
Whoa. So fighting a BlueCoat is super dangerous. Thanks for the instant reply.
Other factors may also apply — if Ryker fights his way inside the thug’s guard, say, he might gain potency as he gets his blade to the thug’s throat.
You might frame things that way when describing the PC’s position and effect. “Unless you get past his guard, it’s limited (or zero) effect.”
Potency’s like the “fictional wiggle-room” factor, right? Quality and Scale are very mathematical but Potency allows creative solutions.
Yep.
Just let go Craig. Do drama, not numbers. I’ll get it.
Great question. Clarified things for me.
Here’s the thing though… I have yet to see this come up in any of the online APs I have watched. Even the ones John Harper has run. Can someone point me to an AP where this is taken into consideration?
Tier is accounted for in all my sessions, every time I set the effect level. Maybe the explicit accounting of relative Tier levels has been unsaid or too quick to notice.
In any case, the rules on pages 24-27 are hopefully clear enough to implement without trouble.
I think too quick to notice on my part John Harper. I’ve watched all of your Blades APs over the past few weeks and I don’t remember this ever being explicitly mentioned. I’m going to need to reconsider aspects of the game now. My Tier 0 crew taking on even a couple of Bluecoats will no longer be something they should realistically try without serious advantage.
Okay, hold on. I’m re-thinking this. So re-reading pages 24-27, the rules state to ‘go with your gut’ first. So, realistically, a Tier 0 crew taking on a couple of Bluecoats isn’t necessarily immediately zero effect due to Tier difference. Correct? A Cutter getting the drop on a Bluecoat is still just two armed people skirmishing. If the crew were to attempt to pull some shenanigans in a Bluecoat precinct, then perhaps Tier would come into play…
Yeah, you can consider dominant factors (a dagger in the back of an unsuspecting target is probable Potent enough to take care of any Tier difference) and the fact that Tier is an abstract average, not the specific quality of every member and item of a Faction. If you catch a rookie Bluecoat coming out of the tavern when he’s off-duty, he’s probably not Tier 3.
Personally I would argue that a drunk rookie Bluecoat is absolutely still Tier 3, but he or she’s lost Potency.
For my money, it’s helpful to remember that Tier is a fictional abstraction that covers the faction’s relative power both within Doskvol and also within the narrative. It’s not (just) a simulation of how good they are at fighting, it’s represents how likely they are to win the fight from a narrative and thematic point of view.
If it’s the first episode of our gritty HBO drama and the rookie anti-hero starts a head-to-head fight with a Bluecoat in the street, a police force described as “the meanest gang in the city. Corrupt, violent, and cruel”, there’s no way that makes thematic or narrative sense for the rookie hero to beat the Bluecoat.
Maybe if the scoundrel gets help, or they really push themselves, or they take a devil’s bargain, or they do something incredibly dangerous or lucky – then sure.
Peaky Blinders helped me to understand tiers in Blades in the Dark. In the first season the Blinders are Tier 0 and the cops are Tier II, one of their major fears and antagonists. By the third season the cops aren’t a problem in any way at all – they’re still the same hard english men with batons and guns, but the fictional tiers have changed and the Tier III Peaky Blinders don’t need to be concerned with them anymore.
That’s how I like to play it, anyway..!
Yeah, todd estabrook that’s right. Go with your gut, use the Tiers as guidance. Also, Tim Denee and Thomas Berton explain their own “gut-methods” very well.
Appreciated everyone… I only just started watching Peaky Blinders, but I can see the analogy already.
The game is incredibly fun, and my players are having a really good time, so the important bits are covered. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t downplaying Tier as the OP mentioned.
Ditto on really fun. We’ve just converted to BitD from Savage Worlds and the story has taken off.
In regards to my first post, it makes “pre-combat” maneuvering particularly useful. “I slide into the shadows behind him…” could grant position potency. Kind of cool, just takes a change of thought process to get there.
My challenge so far has been turning my “I roll stealth.” players into “Spivey slips into the shadows and makes his way towards the watchpost….” players. Myself included.
Yeah, that’s always a thing. I’m making my comeback, “Why?”
I roll Stealth, he says. Why, I ask. What is it you’re doing? I want to sneak around them, he says, get into a dark spot and outflank them. Awesome, says I, roll the dice.
This actually raises an interesting question about “I want to narrate it after the dice roll” players. If someone says they want to roll skirmish and narrate after and they get their risky limited effect due to tiers but then they roll a 6 and narrate shooting someone in the face a gun against a normal face should have potency right? Are players who want the dice rolls to dictate the fiction including the lead up to the result instead of just the result cheating themselves out of position and effect? John Harper​
Yeah. Narrating like that after the roll isn’t ideal for this game.
This thread really helped put the whole Scale, Quality, and Potency into mind. My game tonight will definitely benefit from it, especially considering that an Inspector is coming to make an arrest.