Is it me but the Slide feels a little mono tone to me? I know that the subtitle is “A Subtle Manipulator and Spy” but I feel that there is space for the con artist, performer, salesman side of the “Rogue” character. There is space in the game for that type of Playbook and “Subtle Manipulator and Spy” has lots of overlap with the Spider. Many of the special abilities don’t grab me and I’ve seen the ones that do like “A little something on the side” and “Like looking into a mirror” taken as veteran abilities by other classes. Beyond the use of disguise I don’t see all that much that plays into the fiction for the Slide.
I’ve had a go at writing a few abilities:
ENTERTAINMENT: You get +1d when performing (oration, acting, story telling, music, romancing)
MERCANTILE: When buying, selling or dealing in commerce you get +1 effect.
examples:
Sway: during barter of financial deals
Consort: with merchants on trade
Study: ledgers and manifests
Survey: the movement of good on the docks
I was also thinking about a “Gift of the gab” type abilities but couldn’t find a way to convincingly limit it to stop it from being too powerful (Entertainment covers much of it). And then there was an “I belong here” type ability i.e. acting as if you belong in a place you shouldn’t be with confidence so that your presence isn’t questioned.
I’ve not had anyone in the games that I have run play a Slide nor is it the type of character that I tend to play and so I may be off track here. I would be interested to hear how people have found the Slide in actual play and any thoughts on the Playbook.
I’d say don’t knock it till you try it. I ran a short campaign which had a crew of a Hound, a Slide, and a Whisper. They ran most their heists with a very social manipulation heavy angle and it did them well. Mesmerism and the other abilities are great for getting you and your crew into a place you shouldn’t be. Also they are great abilities for when you are trying to pull the wool over the leader of a faction to pretend you are working for them when you are really working for their enemy.
The Slide is the fast talking con artist and if you watched Ocean’s 11 you’d see how useful someone like that is.
I have a Slide in my group, and he’s the go-to for social rolls. The Spider is much more of a support character, I think. They have abilities that boost the performance of the group as a whole, while the Slide is all about social rolls. The tables I play with tend to do a lot of socializing and deal-making, trying to solve problems by talking first, so we tend to get at least one Face-style character per group. I think once we accidentally had all faces, and no stealth, and it was hilarious.
Anyway, I’d say the Slide’s abilities are pretty great if the group finds itself talking to people often.
Rook’s Gambit allows the player to invest strongly in one or two skills (Personally I’d do Sway and Finesse) to roll 3 or 4 dice on any important actions, which is great. Mesmerism is an interesting conman-type ability, because if people don’t remember that you conned them, they can’t do anything about it. Trust in Me rewards you for interacting with the same people repeatedly (it doesn’t say “positive relationship,” and I read it as more of knowing the target inside and out). Ghost Voice is handy for crews that deal with spirits often, their special armor is great for covering bad rolls in social situations, and Cloak & Dagger works both defensively and offensively; your disguises are better, and it’s an awesome ambush.
The entertainer and salesman angles are interesting, and I could see how they’d work in as backgrounds, but there aren’t any abilities on the Slide sheet that I’d like to give up. Also, who doesn’t like a cane-sword?
Hmmmm, yes but anyone can pump points into Sway and Consort and do much of that. I agree that Mesmerism could be useful in getting past tricky situations but I’m not totally convinced. I will have to run something social at some point and see how it pans out.
Thanks for the feedback. Part of my thinking is that Hawkers as a crew is all about selling and salesmanship and besides “Silver Tongues” giving an extra action dot in Resolve actions there is nothing that adds to selling. It’s mostly about improving the product and expanding the market. My suggestions are in part to help that.
Mercantile gives you a seller, Entertainment give you a bard and both gives you PT Barnum.
If you want to see what a Slide can do for a game watch It’s Never Sunny in Doskvol and see what Vale does for the team. She ends up being the defacto leader of the gang. She uses Like looking into a Mirror to great effect.
youtube.com – Blades in the Dark | It’s Never Sunny in Duskvol | Ep 1.1
Another one you can watch to see how the slide can work for the crew.
youtube.com – FFTV Presents: Blades in the Dark – YouTube
The Slide is ideal for a Hawker Crew. Everything adds to selling: Want to get rid of a bad batch of drugs or cursed goods? Use Clock & Dagger and Mesmerism to sell them off to dealer in another faction. Want to convince a low level dealer you’ve been working with to get you a meeting with their boss? Use Trust in Me. Need to know if this batch of drugs is pure demon blood or cut with pig blood? Use Like Looking in a Mirror. Want to sell spectral drugs to ghost junkies? You’ll need Ghost Voice.
(This got long again.)
Kind of? I mean, Rook’s Gambit is, like, a min-maxer’s dream, gated by creativity. Trust in Me is a flat die on top of assists, pushing yourself, or devils’ bargains, with a pretty easy condition to meet. Those bonuses are really quite good.
The only ability I’d agree with you can be imitated with a high Sway score would be Cloak & Dagger, and that’s only if the character can find the perfect disguise for a situation (Great Effect level already), and I’d argue that if a player could utterly convince everyone of his disguise, he might have the initiative when throwing it off, but the ability makes it much easier. Also, Colin Fahrion’s examples are great.
Of course, I’m not arguing that you have to value these abilities, or like the playbook. If it’s not your thing, that’s fine, and if nobody in your group wants to play it as-is, then offering them options to make it more appealing seems fair. All I’m saying is I think it does what it’s supposed to do pretty well.
As to the Crew-type, they’re kind of all like that. The only combat bonus Breakers get on their sheet is from Blood Brothers, and that just makes their cohorts better. Assassins don’t have any abilities that benefit them in combat directly.
I haven’t put much thought into the Hawkers crew type, or seen anyone play them, so I’m not sure how much help they really need selling. I think the Payoffs section already covers how much coin a score should generate, and GMs can be pretty flexible with that. Also, as someone who has played Bards in D&D, I’m not sure what having a bard in BitD would do for you?
t’s Never Sunny in Doskvol, the game on youtube I mentioned above is a prime example of a Hawkers crew.
Thanks everyone it’s good to get people’s thoughts. It’s not that I don’t like those types of characters it’s that I find them difficult to play and so tend to go in other directions. The examples that you give are all great and I have a better idea how they all work.
I have watched the early episodes of “Never Sunny” and have seen how their crew managed to pull themselves out of their disastrous beginnings, but at the point that I am at they are still learning to work together and some of the players are still learning the system. It looks like a classic game though and I see that it is long running too.
Paul Byford Whenever the Crew does Social or Deception plan, Vale is crucial and pulls it out.
Heh, yeah the Entertainment bonus made me think of bards just like Steven Dodds. I’m not saying you shouldn’t tweak the moves if you want. Hell I’m a house rules nut myself and modify stuff all the time. If there is any move to ditch I’d ditch “A little something on the side” as it’s not too exciting especially for starting characters. Getting extra stash during downtime seems more like the result of a Long-term project.
One of the things when tweaking or coming up with moves is that the best moves add a unique flavor to the character as well as are somewhat specific in how they grant a bonus. There is usually an “If” attached to the moves that requires the fiction be set up first for it to be used. The Entertainment and Merchant ideas aren’t as flavorful as they basically only add “I’m good at selling/buying things” or “I’m good at singing/dancing/etc” and they don’t demand that the player to set up the fiction first to use them.
Look at Trust in Me for instance. The Slide doesn’t have a general +1 to get someone to trust them. The “If” there is that the player must have a relationship with the person. That adds an interesting quirk to it that interacts with the fiction. The player has to create the relationship first and convince the GM that there is a relationship there before they can use it. Another related example is the Hound’s Marked Target which requires that they target be one you previously marked or wounded. The Cutter’s Savage works in much the same way. It’s +1 is granted when used against an already frightened target. See also the Lurk’s Ambush that grants you +1 when attacking from ambush or springing a trap, which requires you to set that up the fiction first.
I could totally see a Merchant bonus for the Slide, some sort of bonus that makes it so that they know a good deal when they see one. Or they know a mark who they can pawn off shitty good to when they see one. But it should be more flavorful than just +1 for any merchant related activity. Maybe something like: Deal broker — as long as everyone is just talking, without weapons drawn, you are calm and in your element. Gain +1 effect to make any haggling or deal making.
Another option for a different move for the Slide: Spot the Mark — You can easily spot the biggest sucker in the room. Any rolls to Sway that person is at +1 effect.
This is interesting approach as it allows the GM to add something to the fiction. The Slide can ask who the sucker is in the room which could be the peon at the other side of the room or maybe it’s the gang’s leader — which then opens up the question of who is really leading the gang? Is it the person who is supposedly the second in command who isn’t saying much?
Or maybe nobody in the room is that big of a sucker, and the player is about to try cheating someone pretty intelligent, hopefully to hilarious result.
Now I’m thinking of making a typical D&D Bard. Probably a Slide with Rook’s Gambit (to be a skill monkey), Foresight (bardic inspiration), and either Ritual, Tempest, or both (for magic). Maybe rewrite Trust in Me to “You give compelling performances. After performing for a receptive target, take +1d when interacting with them.” Dunno what to call it, I’m bad at naming things. Maybe “How was the Show” or something
Interesting, it’s certainly thought provoking. I still do like the conman and performance ideas to give substance to that sort of a character. It’s an interesting idea to try to recreate the D&D bard although that’s not what I really had in mind and I can see how Rook’s Gambit gives the jack of all trades style of character.
I still like the idea of a bonus for going into hostile turf and brazenly behaving as if you belong, but I’m sure that there are out ways of achieving similar outcomes.
Bonus for going into hostile turf and acting like you belong is Cloak & Dagger. As it says “disguise or other form of covert misdirection” acting like you are supposed to be there is definitely a form of misdirection… Guard: “Hey who are you?” Slide: “Me? Wow didn’t he tell you I was coming? He is terrible at communication. Must suck being in your position and never being told what’s happening!” Guard: “Yeah it does. Zetus really tells us nothing.” Slide: “Yeah that’s Zetus. Well I’m here to see Zetus and he said to just come on in and he’d meet us inside.”
Yes, I did read that and perhaps I was reading Cloak and Dagger too narrowly by getting hung up on the word “covert” as to me brazen misdirection is not covert, but I see where you are coming from.
Yeah I figure verbal misdirection works in this situation even it it’s “brazen” to try. The brazen part just factors into the positioning. If you can make the roll you’ve likely got this as you have a bonus to effect. Do you have the clothes that matches their uniform? Great it’s a controlled roll. Or do you have a disguise that makes you look like someone non-threatening that might be there for another reason? Then that’s a Risky position. Are you just brazenly walking in and using body language and verbal misdirection to act like you should be there? That’s at least a Risky position if not a Desperate position depending on how on guard they are.
oh, interpreting “covert misdirection” that way makes it really powerful as you can use it almost anywhere where a Slide interacts with someone. e.g. a feint in a skirmish for extra effect could be considered “covert misdirection”. I’m not sure I would rule that way, but I’m nit picking.
Can’t see how a feint in a skirmish counts. I figure the move only comes into play when you are either making it seem like you should be there or using misdirection so that you aren’t noticed. It should be something which allows for the second part of the move where you reveal yourself to gain initiative on the situation.
If you are in a skirmish then you are in a skirmish and it’s basically impossible to disguise yourself suddenly. I mean maybe an inventive player could walk into a skirmish that is already happening and go unnoticed for a bit until they reveal themselves.
Cloak and Dagger reads “When you use a disguise or other form of covert misdirection you get +1 effect.”
If “covert misdirection” is a feint in combat then it counts for increased effect. A feint after all is a misdirection to throw off your opponent. This is why I was focusing on the word “covert”. If a feint is not covert then of course Cloak and Dagger doesn’t apply. If you are talking about the second part regarding throwing off the disguise then that’s not relevant.
I’m being a rules lawyer, which I hold my hand up for, but as a GM I’m generally liberal when the rule is ambiguous. I try to read a rule set to gauge the spirit of the rules and rule using what I feel is the intent of those rules.
I feel that Cloak and Dagger is about subterfuge rather than general misdirection and so would only allow it in that context.
‘Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me’ as they say
I’d say the feint trick could apply, and work once. Against the same opponent, it would probably become less and less effective, until it’s actually a detriment to the player for trying again.
As someone who fences (the sport, not the erecting of fences), I can tell you it gets easier to deal with a person’s tricks the longer you spar with them. But the first time a skilled fencer with a good trick you’ve never seen before? That’s a touch.
My table’s Slide just took this ability tonight, actually, so maybe we’ll get to explore stuff like this.
Yeah, I’d allow a feint to be covered by that ability too. Gives some options and variety in combat for less combat focused characters of nothing else.