Rules I don’t use
I thought it might be useful to mention a couple of things that haven’t made it to the table.
Hunting grounds: the crew have some, but they’ve never come up in play. Between sessions, I generally create a couple of Score and a couple of Claims the crew could go for. But none of them is based in their hunting grounds. It’s not clear from the rules how they should be used.
Downtime faction clocks: between session, I just run over the list of factions that the players are concerned with and think what they would do, and what would happen, to make the game interesting. I’m not sure how faction downtime progress clocks would be helpful.
(I’ve used clocks during scores a few times, which has generally gone well. The main problem is when the events in the fiction change the situation so the clock is no longer relevant. Very often, I just wave hands and say when an ongoing attempt has either succeeded or failed.)
I use faction downtime clocks; They’re helpful for adding an element of randomness to when things happen, for giving NPC factions agency (For example: How do you tell who is winning the war between the red sashes and the lampblacks? I don’t think it should automatically be “whichever one the PCs are helping”.) and for tracking when, well, longer term projects on the part of the other factions come to fruition. If the Lampblacks have a plan to set an ambush for Mylera, there often isn’t a “Dramatically best” time for that to happen.
Together, these factors make the city more alive than it would be if the only things that ever happened where the things that directly apply to the PCs.
I also use the faction clocks, but I agree about hunting grounds.
Mike Pureka I totally agree the purpose of faction clocks can make what’s going on in the city live past what the PCs do and see.
I also think that the same effect can be achieved with a general sense of the situation and the occasional fortune roll.
To me, the faction clocks are a way to make the world more player-facing so they can see more of the sort of improv noodling that’s going on in the GM’s head. At some game tables, digging in and figuring out the best ways to make that effective will be pretty neat. At other game tables, lots of clocks and details would be a distraction from the main action.
I totally see faction downtime clocks as one of the flexible tools that is available to the game table, but not integral to the system or the setting feel.
I agree with them at a theoretical and design level, but to be honest, I haven’t used faction clocks in my game. Still, factions have risen and fallen, and had goals, and met obstacles, and so forth. Both within the scope of PC action and beyond it.
I don’t really see faction clocks as player facing at all. The strike me as “GM inspiration lonely fun.” And there’s not a “lot of clocks and details” – my game has been going for like ten sessions now, and we have a whopping 5 clocks and…basically zero “details” beyond what each faction’s plan is.
Are they “required”? Of course not. But are they an EASY book-keeping tool to help a GM generate content? HELL YES. If you are not using them, and you are still maintaining the feel of a living city, odds are you are doing the same thing a different way.
I have never used hunting grounds. They weren’t as clearly articulated in the version we started with, and we never retconned it in.
I always use faction clocks, and I make them public. Half the fun is getting the players to squirm. “Wait, what is ‘The Red Sashes’ Revenge’ and can we really afford to leave it at 6/8?”
Right, I think John Perich is talking about here is dead-on. The players can see the clocks, even if they aren’t sure what they are about.
Tempting them to spend precious down time actions to look into mutters and rumors is its own reward, but also inspires the players by giving them ideas for heists. The clocks can represent what information is “in the air” and the players can drill into it (or let the clock fill) but that’s a choice on their part.
Great feedback, everyone! Thanks.
In my experience, hunting grounds are useful to the burglars who focus their scores on prowling the district looking for precious loot to steal. Because of the more political setup of the quick start, with vulnerable factions ready for the picking, the more general “thievery score generator” of hunting grounds might not be used much.
It also may be worth considering that the areas the gang hunts and the gang’s home turf may or may not be the same. If you focus on muscle and protection, that’s one thing. If you steal from your immediate neighbors, that’s another.
The criminals will last longer if they provide some sort of security, cachet, or assistance to those in close proximity. If everyone wants them gone because they’re predators in their own back yard, then that’s a rough situation for them.
Hunting grounds make the most sense for protection rackets, vigilantes, and drug dealers. (In my opinion.)
The biggest point of faction clocks in my mind is you can be quite open about what’s going to happen and then have a clear model for PCs trying to interfere with that. A clock counting up until a faction seizes an advantage, does something awful, or something of the sort is an explicit window for PCs to aid them, hinder them, or get there first.
That’s true in any game, but long-term projects have the same clock model, so there’s a simple, explicit means for PCs to spend downtime actions to alter the trajectory of what’s happening.
And it might be unintentional, but in downtime interaction there’s no real role for tier. An upstart, scrappy crew can put their downtime weight against the actions of The Hive quite effectively. There might be magnitude of effect changes, but you can go up against the big dogs.
Exactly so.
Andrew Shields A good point. Perhaps the Factions list should include “your hunting grounds” and/or “civilians on your turf.” That would make it as easy to track as all the other factions that occupy the crew’s attention.
Continuing on, there might also be a new downtime action of “hunt in your hunting grounds” that will net some amount of Coin, but at the cost of losing some status. The “where you live” status could also be used when determining the results of Gather Information rolls done by other factions against the PCs’ Crew. Keep your neighbours sweet (or scared) and no-one says nothing to no-one.
I never used Hunting Grounds when doing a Thieves game, either, but I think John Harper makes a good point about the nature of the Quickstart. I’d like to see how that works in the full game, and I’d like to see more guidance on Crew Assets in general.
My new game is a Hawkers crew, and I quite like how Products and their Quality fit in fictionally, but I’m not sure how to make them interact with other areas of the game. It could make sense if Quality is tied into Coin or Rep gains from scores, for example (especially if the Quality is high, ala Breaking Bad). We’re only on our second session, so I’m going to try out some things as we go.
Andrew Shields makes a good point about Hunting Grounds and drug dealing, because I think some players coming to Hawkers may expect to eventually have a Wire-esque empire of Turf where their Product is sold, but the crew sheet and Claims map are more focused on setting up specific locations like Vice Dens, and the PCs being personally involved in sales scores- which may make more sense for the Duskwall setting. Still, I am curious what the higher-tier Hawkers game will look like, and I hope for guidance on that in the final book.
Yeah, the finished game will cover this stuff better than the QS.
Hunting grounds are used to generate potential scores that aren’t on someone else’s turf. You have an area marked out where you can operate without pissing off another faction directly. You’ll draw heat from the score, but you won’t be driving down any faction status ratings. It’s your ‘safe zone’ of operation. When your hunting grounds don’t have good opportunities, you have to look elsewhere for your thievery, which in Duskwall means stealing from someone connected to another faction and drawing their ire.
Product quality is used in a similar way to arrange a sales score or to attract new customers without directly messing with another faction. Your stuff is so good, people come to you. When your product isn’t producing good opportunities, you have to go elsewhere for scores, potentially stealing customers directly from another faction and pissing them off.
Use those hunting grounds (or product) fortune rolls when the players go, “Can’t we just do a simple job?” Some groups won’t ever ask that question, though. 🙂
For higher-tier Hawkers, your sales scores will be things like arranging a big buy of product from another faction who wants to sell your stuff (Prop Joe style). You’re still involved in sales as the PCs, but not on the corners. 🙂