I love the new teamwork changes, they definitely smooth things out. The new Lurk ability sounds suitably awesome, and I’m 90% certain that when my crew’s Lurk levels up that he’ll be taking the new ability.
My only question is are you required to spend at least 2 stress and pick one of the features? Can I be a shadowy (but visible) and NOT able to pass through walls for a moment for the cost of 0 stress? If so, can’t I just keep doing it indefinitely? Just being shadowy seems like it would give me potency on prowl actions, which is not unreasonable for a playbook advancement.
Good question. I don’t know if you must spend 2 stress. But it doesn’t seem overpowered if it’s not required because the ‘free use’ is limited to a ‘moment’. A singular ‘moment’ may be enough for when the Lurk is only exposed for a moment, with minimal scrutiny, like when a guard walks down a dusty hallway and passes the Lurk pressed against a cabinet. However, a series of connected ‘moments’ will be necessary if the guard is investigating a disturbance and scanning all the corners, or if the house gossip stops the butler in the hall for a quick word and traps the Lurk in the open for some time. And a series of connected moments of shadowiness should cost 2 stress. If the Lurk doesn’t spend that stress in such situations, then they can still be shadowy for a moment, but the next moment the threat is still there and hiding will be more difficult if possible at all.
Oliver Granger That is a good point. I was thinking that you could continue activating it moment to moment for free, but once it’s up for a minute you should pay the stress.
Happy with the Teamwork changes. Still hoping to get added detail regarding equip (cool tags? mechanical values for weapons and armors? well, at least I can still dream about that…).
Unhappy ’cause I see that things are still pretty undefinied ’till now.
Side note: Actually, TWO Lurk abilities were changed. The other one is pretty powerful too!
Andrea Parducci What things specifically are you unhappy about being undefined? Perhaps those things will be in the final document, but if not the only way to improve your chances are to be specific.
😀 oh, well, as I said long time ago, I’d love to get some detail “back”, from the “standard” PbtA games. Things like “working” equip tags, like “area”, “stun”, “near”, “far” etc., and numerical values for weapons, armors etc.
As already said, I understand that Blades seems to shift priorities from “detailed” combat to “all things are resolved with the same mechanic” and “you have only effect/potency/scale thing in play”, however I’m feeling that the whole system became a “lighter version of Fate system”.
Of course, these are personal preferences, however I’m hoping for a more detailed final product. Until now I’m midly deluded from it (as I said, hoping for a different thing, maybe).
Also, the playbook “special abilities”, I feel aren’t so special. We have few stats to play with (the 12 skills), no “moves” with fancy effects, and the special abilities are few (8/9 usually) and:
> 1 is a “multiclass” thing
> 1 is an “armor” thing
> 1 is a “you can fight/interact with the spirit/demons” thing
> almost every other is “+1d to a limited field”, or “+1effect to a limited field” or “+potency to a limited field” (and those are almost the same effect wrote in a different way).
I feel the playbooks in this game are very similar each other, more like “tabletop game piece” than “RpG character”.
PS: Sorry Mike if I derailed your thread a little.
Andrea Parducci I think you’re probably out of luck hoping for tags and stats for weapons. I also don’t think you really need them. Does the game need to tell you that a rifle has long range and trying to shoot someone far away with a pistol is desperate? Does the game need to say that a large hammer is capable of stunning a target? I would add that on for free as a critical effect, or if the player wants to damage and stun the target I would decrease his position.
You do make a good point about the special abilities though. It’s no coincidence that each of my players gravitated to the abilities in the playbooks that have more fictional components than mechanical ones. Having a ghost dog or being able to make clockwork gear is just cooler than having +1 effect level to things (especially if your GM is like me and is still trying to get a handle on effect). I don’t mind the abilities that exist right now, but I’m greedy and wish there were more. Perhaps the full version will contain others (or you could just poach cool abilities from the large number of new playbooks the KS generated, or you could create your own!).
“or you could create your own” 😀
Actually, I’m investing about 70$ (KS + shipping), so I hoping to get more ready-to-play stuff that I can! ;D
Mark Griffin Yes, you can activate Ghost Veil for 0 stress, and it lasts only a moment.
I have to say, I don’t really understand the issue with special abilities. They’re basically the same as AW playbooks in terms of what they do.
The Gunlugger
Battle-hardened: Stat sub move. The Slide has this one.
Battlefield instincts: Stat sub move.
Insano like Drano: +1 stat.
Prepared for the inevitable: Add gear.
Bloodcrazed: +1 harm. The Cutter has this.
Not to be fucked with: Scale move. The Cutter has this.
Fuck this shit: Escape move. This is the ‘special’ move for the playbook. (Note that it’s the only one.)
And… that’s it. All the playbooks are like that. Blades characters actually have more abilities. AW playbooks only have a few weird special things (like Arresting Skinner, which is the type of ability that Reflexes is in Blades).
I don’t see how AW abilities are more interesting. Not trying to be combative here — I genuinely fail to see it. Maybe the AW names are move evocative? I dunno.
That said, there will be a pool of extra special abilities for everyone to choose from (this is why Veteran is written the way it is). So you’ll have a few more to pick from.
John Harper I don’t really have a problem with the moves on your sheets. I’ve just noticed that all of my PCs first moves were things that did not include +1d or potency, instead preferring things that let their characters do a special new thing. I’ve also never played AW, so I can’t speak towards those moves. I have played a fair amount of dungeon world however. I will say that DW sheets have a little more than double the number of advancements, and maybe 30% of them are new special things you can do.
The rules in Blades are loose enough though, that there isn’t much a resourceful PC can’t do. Do you want to attune to create a solid wall of electroplasm for a short period of time to stop pursuers? Alright, you can probably do that. Do you want an NPC to have heard rumors about how dangerous you are? Flashback! Do you want to be able to fly? You might be able to tinker something to accomplish that, for a short while at least. With long term projects, flashbacks, alchemy, clockwork and the ghost field I think you can accomplish most things with enough time, money and effort. So in a way, every time you add an ability to the game that’s one thing I feel obliged to say “you can’t do that unless you have ability X.”
Mark Griffin You make good points. I will point out that there are a few different things playing out in the types of special abilities that draw players.
One is players wanting to be sure when their character does something central to the character’s concept, it’s cool. Being the fighter, you want to be a great fighter and punch above your weight. So you take special abilities that reinforce that idea and give you an advantage over others when you fight. That’s your thing.
Also, there is a desire on the part of some players for protection from the dice. They want to feel cool even if the rolls are terrible. Finding ways to increase their effectiveness in the face of randomness where uncomplicated success requires a 6 in a shallow dice pool can mean looking to special abilities for that effectiveness.
A final point: I agree that the rules in Blades in the Dark are loose and encourage creativity. One reason players sometimes gravitate towards crunch special abilities over fictional special abilities has to do with the game master. If you’re playing with someone who has high bandwidth and improvises fluidly and is committed to showcasing player ideas, fiction-first special abilities are great! If your game master has the same overall vision of the setting as the players do, or is willing to let them shape it, all kinds of fantastic uses for fiction-first special abilities emerge. (I’m a big fan of them myself.)
However, it is not unreasonable for players who are unsure of their game master, or who know the game master’s style is more rigid and slow-changing, to want concrete advantages for their characters. You want your special abilities to be things you can use, and the more limited your freedom in exploring and opening new doors, the more you want to control how you can perform in the doors you’re allowed to go through. (I know that’s not the style of the game, but I’m looking at player motivation in character building here.)
From a more positive direction, the GM is responsible for the overall stability of the world’s fiction. If it doesn’t make sense in your vision of Duskwall to have the wealthy upper class roaring through the sky with electroplasmic jet packs, then there are reasons that’s going to be extraordinarily difficult. No matter how much the captive cutter wants to just concentrate and be one with the prison wall and walk through it, that won’t happen without supernatural help. And so on.
Still, the point about not wanting to box action in so it requires special abilities is well taken. A useful middle ground is to have special abilities that make things easier, rather than making them possible (unless they are pretty far out there anyway. Untrained surgery SHOULD be gruesomely risky.)
Good thoughts!
John Harper well, I’ll try to better focus my sensations. Maybe the biggest issue I have with Blades playbooks is that they are quite similar each other. Looking again to the AW playbook, I understand they have few moves, BUT they are pretty different as ARCHETYPES, and they bring very different kinds of fiction in play.
They don’t only have few very specific moves, they have (often) a whole surrounding of “mechanics” that help those archetypes to shine. Ie. the Chopper has his band, with specific tags, you can really feel they rob, they get what they want, you have to make example of them etc. The Driver has his car! And it’s a force of nature, when it’s his turn of shining. The hocus has the “family” with needs and fortunes, and make cool things when speak around (not a +1 to Consort skill). The Operator’s gigs, different in fiction, confronted with the Chopper’s gang.
Man, take a look to the Savvyhead Workspace mechanics (like the Ritual of DW wizard)! Also, his moves “Things speak”, with inspiring questions, and Bonefeel…
I can’t find nothing of that, in the Blades playbook, when I watch (ie.) the Leech. Dunno, I feel no “magic” in those playbooks.
Even returning to the “uninspired” Gunlugger… He’s powerful! He has lot of good weapons, does real damage, and he count as a gang (so, more damage inflicted, less damage suffered, not a single “aspect” in the roll). Also, he’s very Hard. I never thought in play “The Operator could beat the Gunlugger, in a 1-on-1 fight. Gunlugger IS the badass, there. I can’t say that in Blades (letting aside the whole discussion about “how to face a scene with several enemies around” that we had time ago).
Also, AW is JUST the precursor of all those kind of games. Even so, taking in account the 30 (?) most famous playbooks created for that game, I think there are tons of good, inspiring moves/special_abilities/mechanics to draw inspiration from. Lot of them tells a whole story, thanks to a good couple of dedicated mechanics and a couple of good special abilities. Solace, Faceless, Spectacle, Turncoat… Then, using bonds (that we find in other PbtA games), and “dedicated” stat sets, etc. I think all those things help to create the “magic”. I can’t find that alchemy in Blades.
Ok, I really understand you are NOT trying to create the Nth AW clone, still I feel I really miss something. Maybe, I was simply hoping for a different game. So, the problem is mine.
I hope I explored the whole thing fully. I hope you can feel what I’m feeling, putting those two games, side by side. (and yeah, I know, I can’t give a definitive judgement until I’ll see the whole Blades book, while looking the playbooks I can easily predict what could “bring me down”).
Another thing: however, I’m still trying to playing Blades, at my table: we already did about ten sessions, with the crew ready to destroy another Tier 2 clan. We had good missions, and good fiction – while I REALLY used lot of PbtA savvyness to filling some voids. The truth is, I keep thinking “We could have more fun, playing with AW engine and playbooks, using just the Blades setting, and its inspiring tables to generate missions, adding specific places, factions, etc. Of course, I’m liking the “structurated” downtime and mission preparation, the crew sheet, etc.
Sorry, John Harper, if my words sound rude. I’m still feeling excited for the proejct, and I always love to give to every game designer my heated point of view, even (or especially) when I’m feeling disaffected. I mean to cause no offence.
Thanks, Andrea. I appreciate your feedback!
It has always been a goal of Blades for the scoundrel characters to be similar to each other. Originally there was only one playbook! 🙂 Blades is a much more focused game than AW, with a narrower range of character types. So that aspect won’t change.
I like cross training in games and in fiction. I am not a big fan of niche protection. That’s one of the things I like about Blades in the Dark. You could reasonably have scoundrels with different backgrounds filling in for each other.
Andrea Parducci The fact that the BitD playbooks are more similar than AW doesn’t really bother me. As John Harper says and I agree it’s a different game. They are all scoundrels with a heavy focus on them as a crew. This is entirely different than AW’s game style where everyone is a unique snowflake who are just as likely to help each other as shoot each other. On that topic, it’s best not to think of BitD as a AW inspired game as there is so much about the game and game mechanics that is different.
On thread’s topic, I gotta say I really love the new teamwork rules. Way easier to work with on the fly as the crew is running about.
Andrew Shields Well, while I’m not a fan of heavy crunch systems like D&D3.5, I LOVE peculiar abilities that let your character doing something very good (or very differently from the others). Ie. a single Playbook with “You simply can’t be taken by surprise from an enemy”. Or “When it’s time to act, you can always say first what you do (Lurk has it)”, or “You never need for climbing of lockpicking gear. Your hands and maybe an hairpin are all you need” or “While you are in the crowd, it’s impossible to notice you, or follow your tracks”. I like that every character can have 4 dots in Prowl, but only YOU are freaking invisible while in midst of some people!!!
You’ll see some things like that in the extra abilities lists, Andrea. There are special things available when you become an adept of a forgotten god, or master Iruvian swordplay.