“A score yields 1 rep per Tier of the target and a
coin reward based on the nature of the operation
(see list at right).”
Well, I feel this rule is quite broken. Let’s take a noob crew, doing his first jobs, vs. tier 1 enemies. It takes forever to get the tier 1. Then, when you start to do jobs vs. tier 2 enemies, you go up in about 4 or 5 missions (also, probably you gained Turf in the meanwhile, so you need fewer Rep to go up).
Then, when you’ll fight vs tier 3 enemies, you’ll go up in a couple of missions.
I’m quite astonished about that.
Of course, I’d could suggest you should use a rule like: A score yelds 1 rep it your target is inferior, 2 rep if your target is on par with your crew, 3 rep if your target is above your crew.
(or, something like that)
The thing is, being Tier 0 doesn’t mean you’re facing Tier 1 enemies, being Tier 1 doesn’t mean you’re facing Tier 2 enemies and so on and so forth. It’s up to the players who they try to make a Score against, so a Score’s difficulty should correspond to the Tier of the group they are making it against. Yes, you’ll go up in 3 Scores by taking on Tier 3 enemies. But the danger of those Scores far exceeds the danger of 5 Tier 2 Scores.
“Yes, you’ll go up in 3 Scores by taking on Tier 3 enemies.” Of course, I was talking especially about those situations. When you are Tier 3 and get jobs vs. other Tier 3, you go up on a breeze.
About “But the danger of those Scores far exceeds the danger of 5 Tier 2 Scores.”, well, I’m not with you. When your crew is against same-tier enemies, then the challenge should be “daring” at most, with just some “desperate” moments, as fiction (and 4-5 results) dictate, imho.
Also, if you use that way of thinking, when you are Tier 3 you should overwhelm easily every Tier 2 job, still earning Rep with almost no efforts.
This strikes me as a feature, not a bug. As you get bigger and more known, you accelerate upwards. I don’t think it should (necessarily) be a linear progression.
Interesting points Andrea Parducci.
I kinda of agree with Dylan Durrant , it doesn’t look broken
For example, a fresh crew could attempt a score a Tier 4 faction. The difference tier will dominant but it is possible they could pull it off. With the current rules, they’d get 4 rep for such audacity, rather than only 1 rep against a Tier 1 faction, which seems a fairer reflection of risk vs reward.
Also, a Tier 3 crew’s rise depends on more than just rep, going from 2 to 3 requires 12 coin. Not only is consolidating their hold on their tier cheaper as they rise, it’ll become more important as they want to hold on to what they’ve got. This means that higher tier crew will probably also spending rep on consolidating their hold, not just rising tier.
Particularly because, as the crew rises, they’ll get more enemies among the factions, the law, demons etc., and they’re going to go out of their way to act against them. So the crew is going to have to contend with losing tier levels and rep as more factions act against them, meaning rep may get whittled away as much as they earn it.
Most scores will surely be harder against higher Tier factions. I think this is less to do with the position on the action rolls and the tier as factor on effect level, and more to do with them having bigger gangs, more resources for better equipment and experts, and deeper roots in the city. Particularly if a crew has history against a faction, then that faction is going to expect the crew to act against them, so they’re going to specifically take measures to handle that crew’s actions against them.
John Harper, looking at the rules on this, page 13 clearly says crew get rep for successful score. However, that’s not so clearly written on page 29 The Payoff. I think page 29 could be improved by amending the first sentence to: “A successful score yields 1 rep per Tier of the target and a coin reward based on the nature of the operation.”
Good catch, Oliver; I’ll add that clarification.
Oliver Granger of course, we don’t have the full suite of rules, now. So I can’t speak about “consolidate holds”, “missions played by the crew as defenders ’cause others are attacking you” etc. “Also, actually we don’t know well how Hold is related to the Tier, what about failed missions consequences, etc.
Still, that Rep gaining method puzzles me.
Andrea Parducci all that is already in the Quick Start rules.
From page 13 & 14 I can see that you don’t get any rep if the score ain’t successful. You’ll still get negative status with any factions that are hurt by your actions, irrespective of the score’s success.
The following are quotes:
page 13
Hold
On the faction ladders next to the tier numbers is a letter indicating the strength of each faction’s hold on their tier. Hold represents how well a faction can maintain their current position on the ladder. W indicates weak hold. F indicates firm hold. S indicates strong hold. Your crew begins with weak hold.
Advancement
By default, your crew needs 9 rep to advance. When you advance, you can choose to improve your crew’s tier or their hold by one step.
page 14
Reducing a Faction’s Hold
You may perform an operation specifically to reduce the hold of another faction, if you know of a way they’re vulnerable. If the operation succeeds, the target faction loses 1 level of hold (strong drops to firm, firm drops to weak, and if weak drops, the faction loses 1 tier and stays weak.)
Also, when a faction goes to war, it temporarily loses 1 level of hold while the war persists, to represent the distraction of dealing with an enemy in open conflict.
Your crew can lose hold, too, following the same rules above.
pag 20
NPC Downtime
The NPC crews and factions also do things when you take downtime. The GM advances their project clocks and chooses a downtime action or two for each faction that they’re interested in at the moment. Choose any action that makes sense for that faction to pursue. For example:
- Seize a claim or generate hold, make an enemy vulnerable, or reduce the hold of a vulnerable enemy.
– Gather information on the PCs (may be opposed by a PC roll) or another subject.
- Achieve a short-term goal they’re in position to accomplish.
All the rules for hold and tier are in the quick start. Oliver is using those rules as the basis for what he’s saying, which is spot on.
(cross posted with Oliver)
To understand the way rep gain works, think of it this way:
You gain rep from a job because people care about what you did. More people care about what happens to higher tier targets.
If you want to gain rep, messing with tier 1 targets will mean a slow rise. Who cares that you hurt the Fog Hounds?
When you target big names, you have a bigger splash. You stole from the Unseen? Everyone will be talking about that.
That’s how rep works in Duskwall, so that’s how the mechanic works.
Mmm, excuse me John Harper , so we have mechanical rules (Rep, Coins, doing spcific missions etc.) to bring our crew from 0-Tier to 1-Tier etc., BUT we have no rules to manage enemies making the same vs. the players crew (I know about the downtime enemy clocks)? Trying to explain better: so, if our crew is in Tier-2, and we lose 4 missions in a row, and the Bluecoats took 4 NPC friends to the prison, are we still in the Tier-2 and with all the Rep we got until now?
I keep seeing “lot” of rules in a direction, and only fiction in another.
EDIT: I read about “Your crew can lose hold, too, following the same rules above.”
So, failed missions are worth a redcution in Hold?? Or just failed “defensive” missions against faction that concluded their clock against the crew, ie. “Searching for the Crew Lair” completed clock can trigger an enemy mission vs. the crew. If the crew lose, they lose 1 Hold.
All the relevant rules are in my post above. The NPC rules are briefer but simply because they’re not the focus of gameplay. NPC factions rules are more a system for creating a dynamic backdrop to show how much the PCs are rocking the boat, to show the consequences of the PCs actions with some consistency.
Failed missions don’t reduce the crew’s hold.
However, acting against a faction can hurt them, meaning they may target your crew. The faction can use long term clocks to hurt your crew, but there’s a shorter method.
Each downtime that faction can choose one or two actions, including:
– make an enemy vulnerable
– reduce the hold of a vulnerable enemy.
So if you’re a priority enemy or an easy target, a faction can spend an action to find where you’re vunerable and then use that to reduce your hold, say from firm to weak, or worse from weak Tier 2 to weak Tier 1. Boom! Bye bye pile of rep, bye bye 8 coin.
Just what it says. Is that English unclear?
No, it’s clear. Simply, I understand there are no set mechanics for failed missions, the GM has to work with the downtime enemy actions / clocks, to target Hold (then Tier) of the PCs crew.