Thoughts on Gangs, Claims, and “Turf”:
I’ve been bouncing loose ideas for a cyberpunk themed hack around in my head for a while. I know a cyberpunk hack is supposed to come out as a stretch goal, but whats the fun in waiting for that?
One problem I’ve stumbled upon recently is how you would handle the “Claims” part of the crew sheet for a typical group of “Runners”. Most cyberpunk blackops mercenaries/Runners don’t exactly keep “turf”. They’ve got a safehouse or three, but that is about it. That said, a few of the claims are more like useful assets/contacts (the fences) so maybe one could just eliminate the generic “Turf” ones and throw in more of the specialized ones.
I’ve actually somewhat had this problem with Claims in general. It is a nice thematic thing, but what if my crew doesn’t want to be a large gang with turf and minions and stuff? What if we just want to be a group of elite crooks who rob mansions and banks before retiring to our secret hideouts without having to worry about turf and stuff?
A lot of the thief types I think of as examples don’t have large gangs and turf. People like Danny Ocean, Garret (Thief series), the Payday Crew, typical Shadowrunners, etc. Turf and gangs works well for other crew types (Breakers, Hawkers, Cultists, etc) but it doesn’t feel quite right for Thieves to me.
I guess one could always just reflavor turf in some other way. Or you could ignore it, but ignoring the hold turf can give leaves a gang awfully weak, especially in tier transitions.
One could always devise or consider alternative methods.
https://fictivefantasies.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/enterprises-for-blades-in-the-dark-6-22-15.pdf
I think “turf” for thieves would be much the same as any other: the area where you commit your crimes (and keep others from doing so). It would also cover anyone that you extended protection to.
Ways to start a turf war with a gang of thieves:
* you’ve been prepping a long term job for weeks when someone burgles them before you do
* lots of robberies in the areas you operate, bringing additional police activity
* someone burgles/robs/threatens/shakes down/burns down/murders your fence, the bar where you hang out, the tinker who makes you those wonderful toys, the whisper you call on when you need spiritual backup
* someone does any of those things to you
Part of the question here is transitioning from the tangible industrial-feel world to the more fast-paced urban sprawl of a high-tech futuristic feel.
In a techno-urban setting, I’d leave turf to street gangs. For elite operatives, turf could be non-geographic.
One character has a claim in the hacker community. One character has claim with gun runners in the city. One character is known for his ability to access government databases for looking up information on people. Another character is the Switzerland of favor banks.
I saw that a while back. To each their own, but I didn’t like it, too complicated IMO. Business fronts is a decent idea but It is not something I want to be a focus of the game.
Ideally I’d want something that can slot nice and easy into that spot on the crew sheet.
That is fine, I don’t expect anyone else will use it. Still, you pointed out some struggles:
What if I don’t want to track geographical turf?
What if I don’t want to be in charge of lots of people, I just want a crew of elite crooks?
How can I have a level of resiliency without taking on turf?
I was having the same questions, and these were my answers.
I can totally see your point that in a typical cyberpunk game you are dealing with just a small crew that doesn’t have large gangs and turf, but then those games seldom deal with becoming a power player with a gang/turf/assets. Usually you are just a runner doing deals with other gangs/corps/etc. Those games were modeled that way as it’s not much different than a fantasy adventuring party making a deal with the guild for a reward to take out the trolls causing trouble on trade route.
Blades in the Dark does things differently in that it bakes in to the mechanics your group becoming a faction all your own with gangs/turf/assets. Though you could certainly run BitD just as a gang making deals from various factions by using Andrew Shields gang generation rules. https://fictivefantasies.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/gang-generation-4-22-153.pdf
A small gang in BitD could become a serious force to be reckoned with and gain a certain amount of respect from the various factions. You could even do some serious damage to a faction just as a gang, possibly taking them down. But all it would do is create a power vacuum and without your own gangs to run start running shit another faction would step in. So if you want to run shit rather than just make deals you need to get some more muscle and take some turf so that you have places to shake down for coin and some safe areas outside of just your safe house.
One way to look at the Thieves crew book (and all the crew books) is that it’s not just about a gang which is more limited and focused (see Andrew’s gang generation). As such, just because you have a Thieves crew doesn’t mean stealing shit is the only thing your crew does, it’s just one of the main the focuses at least at the beginning. Looking at the Claims there already is some branching beyond stealing things build into it since you could have a Gambling Den and a Bazaar. Then you can also take Veteran to grab other crew moves.
For a futuristic game, I could see ditching hold and replacing it with faction only , since networking could be the beginning and end for shadowrunning types.
Who are your sources for information, documents, weapons, specialized equipment, hideouts, and crew? Who will look after your interests when the heat is on? Likewise, who provides your customer base, that calls YOU in for work that THEY don’t want to / don’t dare do?
That has the additional advantage of simplifying system. =)
In the older draft, their was a “crew stat” named Reputation. Maybe you could expand on that?
Or maybe use Reputation to mitigate the worst effects of random rolls when it comes to whether your employer will screw you, or whether you can extract assistance from reluctant allies, etc.
I agree about Thieves and Claims. But, for now, if you don’t want to deal with turf and gangs, you don’t have to. You can just spend your crew upgrades on other things, and advance in Tier by getting Rep for stealing things, and focus on shoving Coin into your Stash and not worrying about Claims, and the game would work fine. (I also agree with Colin Fahrion’s post on this topic.)
What is unsatisfying about that, though, is that I would prefer to see Thieves have something better tailored to them. For example, in the current QS, Thieves also have Hunting Grounds (which fill the space Jeff Johnston is talking about), but how this interacts with Turf or Hold, etc, if at all, is not explained.
In rereading the rules for Claims I came across this paragraph which basically says you can ignore the roadmap and just go for the parts you want (for example ignore the turf squares) but it takes a bit of additional work: “If you choose to ignore the roadmap paths when seizing a claim, the GM might tell you that you’ll need to investigate and gather information in order to discover a claim of that type before you can atempt to seize it.”
The key thing about claims, in my mind, is that they are limited and tangible. If you want it, you have to take it from someone else. Meanwhile Turf could be popular support or Respect with increasingly wide or prestigious audiences, but it must be clear when you take it from someone or they take it from you.
For my cult crew I swapped the left side Turf claims for followers, but that also implies space for them to hold ceremonies and comfortably live their normal lives. Later claims include zealots, popular support and elite support (like from faction leaders, rulers, nobles, movers and shakers, etc)
Adam Minnie That’s a good idea.
I once had a teacher that did a neat visual when we were studying European history. He drew a box on the chalk board, and segmented off the inside; king, nobles, church, guilds, people.
He said there was a finite amount of power, and if one faction gained more (or lost some) then others would adjust accordingly.
So, that is a “zero sum” view of territory and power. Compare that to, say, the model of a religion spreading in a secular area. One or more religions can gain converts, wealth, and influence, but they understand there are more potential converts to be had. The success of one faction is not at the expense of another faction.
Deciding between zero sum and market creation is a key part of how you see Duskwall. Where does it fall on the spectrum? More towards “criminal land of opportunity” or more towards “claustrophobic crab bucket of back-stabbing desperation”?
Both are great, and possibly there are areas that have different intensities of development, so you can shape neighborhoods by answering that question locally.
You could replace physical turf with reputation as the premiere group in a particular kind of operations, which then spins off to different contacts and opportunities.
Claims can be assets too. The best fixers give the best jobs, a few great weapons caches or sellers, mean good gear. tier and gangs can matter less about quantity and more about quality of assets like specialists, vehicles, guns, etc. Gangs usually give scale bonus to certain types of actions, but specialists can give potency and great gear can grant quality in a similar fashion.