Quick Start v3e GENCON draft!

Quick Start v3e GENCON draft!

Quick Start v3e GENCON draft!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhoukci0899ndtp/blades_v3e_draft.pdf?dl=0

Here’s a new draft of the game, just in time for people playing at GenCon. It’s an incomplete draft (missing stuff like the long example, and the GM pages), but it has all the current rules and playbooks.

It also has a little surprise on the final page. Some people have wondered how I’m doing examples or “moves” for the game, and you can finally see it. They’re called Instances. Each one is an example of how to apply the rules and are also a pre-built mechanic that you can use as-is, if you want. Some will be general, others very specific, even down to stuff like, “When you try to make a deal with Bazso Baz…”

Also, instances will be grouped by playset and setting. As you can see, the page says “In the Shadows of Duskwall” at the top. There will also be instances for the Bluecoats playset, the Leviathan Hunters playset, the demon city of U’Duasha, etc.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhoukci0899ndtp/blades_v3e_draft.pdf?dl=0

87 thoughts on “Quick Start v3e GENCON draft!”

  5. Instances are cool. They seem very useful and portable to other settings.

    Slimmer actions list looking good.

    Claims still refer to development rolls. Is this still pending or is there a missed update? (EDIT: I was wrong, the Crews sheet Claims Map is updated!)

  11. John Harper Is there a fix to use in the meantime? (Edit: nevermind, the Crews sheet Claims Map is updated!)

    Reading Instances some more and really into it. I love the included Consequences.

    Also just noticed the addition of Rivals to Friends – very cool.

  12. I have to say my only complaint is that while social and combat skills have been condensed, supernatural still has two, both in the same category. So in order to have someone with truly high resolve you have to learn attune and invoke.

    Also slides still have a power that adds +1d to guile even though guile no longer exists.

  13. Wow. Better and better all the time. So much to love. Thanks for baking so much good into this game John Harper.

    I enjoy the new non-northern family names and additional look options. Eelskin bodysuit is awesomely evocative.

    I love love love that players now choose one of their friends to be a former friend turned rival, and that they all have up or down arrows. That’s awesome and less flat than the previous list of just friends.

    I also like that characters choose a total load for each score, than fill up to that load with items as needs are discovered during play. Fits nicely with the flashback/heist style.

    I like that armor and resistance rolls now may only reduce consequences rather than avoid them entirely. My player with a Cutter made for taking a beating has ended up taking tons of bad beatings without ever getting harm. I also notice that heavy armor is back, likely because armor is less of the total negator that it used to be.

    I also like using Tier in place of Supply for general bribery or making monetary things happen.

    I love the phrasing of the Lurk’s special ability Reflexes. 🙂 Has a Dos Equis vibe. I also love all the Slide’s options for special abilities now. They really make that playbook bare its own brand of badassery. 

    I like the instances. Very handy ideas for consequences and rationale for shifting positions.

    Did the Bellweather Crematorium always have the cool description of the spirit bells and deathseeker crows? That’s an awesome tidbit I’ve never seen before, but will love to add complications to my players’ cult campaign.

    Some proofing notes: 

    Examples at the end of p. 16  mention Consort and Slip.

    The description of Stitch mentions “lasting effect” which probably means “harm” now.

    Documents is still listed on the list of standard items, but is no longer on each playbook item list.

  15. Mark Moller That’s a good point on Resolve and the supernatural actions. My other concern about them is that, although the reduced actions will make reskins easier (which I believe was one of John’s intentions), having two mystical actions, and having them both under Resolve, makes things tricky for non-magical settings.

  16. Yeah “his stash”, “mistake” 😛

    Also I didn’t know how much I needed this instance page.

    John Harper I’m gonna start pretending all Harper Games are the same verse now.

  17. I see atttune à bit more like “weird science”, and invoke like “religion and supernatural”. In a reskin in rokugan that would be “gaijin stuff” and “Kami”, in shadowrun, “matrix” and “magic”, in DnD, “wizard power” and “priest power”…

    I like that the way it is!

  18. I understand the intent in streamlining actions into physical, mental and spiritual (by other names), but I miss the evocative quality of previous divisions. I also liked the partial overlap between actions that seems to have been lost somewhat.

    I think the Instances as set pieces/recurring structural elements of a story will be a great help, when they’re fully fleshed out.

  19. Oh! The Claims map on the Crew Sheet has been updated. It’s the one earlier in the doc that still refers to development rolls. I like the update! ‘Per downtime’ is a good mechanic for Claimed businesses like the Gambling Den.

  20. Ben Jarvis Agree on the Harper Verse. I think the order may be:

    Agon

    World of Dungeons

    The Mustang

    Bootleggers

    >>To-Come Cataclysm Game/setting, just use BitD to run some True Detective-like thing that involves Carcosa, the emergence of the Eternal Emperor, and the eruption of spirit wells< <

    Blades in the Dark / Ghost Lines

    Ghost/Echo

    >>Another Cataclysm, cannot catch a break< <

    Lady Blackbird

    >>Alien stardrive tech found in the lower deeps< <

    Danger Patrol

    Lasers and Feelings

    I know I’ve missed a game or two, and haven’t run Danger Patrol, so it might not make sense there.

    Interestingly, I found an old blog post by John about the Harperverse. Basically, we have a World of Dungeons campaign to thank for Ghost Lines and thus the BitD setting. http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2013/01/ghost-lines-mini-game-aw-hack-thing.html

  21. Also I really like the slimmed-down skill list. I like that we went from 3 combat-ish skills (though Mayhem has its place outside of combat, and Murder in a combat was more at the GM’s discretion) to 1. Personally I am down with still having Attune and Invoke be distinct things as well. Demons aren’t spectrology; you could be really in good with attune and tinker – like Pierro Joplin from Dishonored, or delve into Invoke like Sokolov (even if it just makes him more boring to the Outsider). Have to get in a closer, thorough read and make some new pre-gens for #antigencon ! Naturally this is the week when work hammers me, but so it goes.

  22. I agree that Attune and Invoke are fine as-is for Duskwall. I’m just concerned about reskinning the actions for a non-supernatural setting, and needing to replace half of the Resolve actions.

  26. My issue isn’t s much that invoke and attune shouldn’t be split, rather that having them both in the same grouping when they are such concept specific skills makes it difficult to having the iron willed muscle or leader character without them having esoteric knowledge of either demons or ghosts.  It’s just hard to justify a character taking them if the character isn’t set up as someone that would bother.  Include stitch and you have three relatively specific skills in one section (Personally I’d have stitch and sway swapped anyway).

    Probably nitpicking on my point but I think it’s worth at least giving an extra once over.

  27. Unless I’m missing something, the general reporting on die roll outcomes are the same on pages 8, 12, and 13. I feel it would be really helpful to make the language consistent (unless they are NOT the same, in which case that’s good to know too.)

    I’m talking about “Critical, Full Success, Reduced Effect, and Failure.” I see no harm in keeping it consistent whether talking about default rolling, rolling in context of a situation, or calculating effect.

  31. On the one hand, I miss Murder. On the other, I think it’s probably a good change. You don’t need to roll Murder to Murder; slashing the throat of someone asleep in bed isn’t something you screw up. What you get wrong is setting up the murder. You have to Prowl into place, Finesse the locks, Sway the gatekeeper and Observe the routes of the guards so you can get into place. Then there’s no roll.

    Maybe three groups of five would work. Add back Murder for Resolve, Deceive for Wits, and… I don’t know what would go with Vigor. And it would ruin the four dots of each attribute. So maybe not.

  33. Josephe Vandel I think part of it is civil conversation, and part of it is also John Harper’s gracious and enthusiastic reception of fan efforts. =)

  36. Really like the simplified list of actions! Not in love with the name “Battle” as it doesn’t feel as thematic as the others. Maybe “Clash”?  Also “Instances” seems off to me though that may be my mind thinking of Instances from a computer server angle. Maybe instead “Acts”? Though this is just me being nitpicky though. Overall the changes are great and love the beginning of the explanation for spirit world stuff and rituals.

  37. Marco Caprile I’d probably say Prowl since the most important part is not being seen. If the effect is too low to take out the person then you’re obviously noticed and it turns to Battle.

  38. I prefer the old action list. My main issue is that cutting down social skills from 4 to 2 is too big a reduction. Having sway do the work of deceive and consort is too much in my opinion. Also, command only vaguely feels like a social action to me. I’m just concerned that anyone can easily be very effective socially with a very small investment of dots. I love that consort is included and would enjoy seeing it’s role expanded, but can see why it might be good to take out. I strongly feel that deceive should stay.

    I like the flavor and differentiation between mayhem and skirmish, but I can see how it’s nice to bring them together. I’m fine with murder going away.

    I’m looking forward to seeing instances that bring more utility to cipher and tinker. I think that no one in our group has either of them, maybe a single dot of cipher on a secondary character somewhere.

  39. I like “Examples” or “Implementation” for the “instances.” That sort of thing is really useful for people wrapping their head around how to apply the tools to the tasks in the game.

  40. Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!

    The action list probably does need yet another pass for utility and style. I’m not opposed to expanding out to 15 if necessary (which also buffs the max resistance roll — not a bad thing).

    You all make good points on this topic, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot myself (of course). It’s a fun, tricky, part of the design.

    As for other playsets and settings, they don’t have to adhere to 12 actions across 3 attributes if they don’t want to. The game can also work with 4 groups of 4, or 3 groups of 5, or 4 groups of 5. Each hacker can make that call for their implementation. You could have a hack that only uses 4 or 5 actions total, if you wanted.

  41. Marco Caprile One reason I removed Murder is because it’s a goal, not an action. You can murder someone with Finesse by poisoning their ale. You can murder someone with Prowl by sneaking up and stabbing them in the back. Etc. Mayhem had the same issue, at least grammatically.

  42. Regarding ‘non-magical’ characters and Resolve:

    You always decide how your character performs an action (p. 9). So it you take a dot in Attune (to raise your Resolve) you can choose to remain non-magical, describing it as a manifestation of your character’s iron will rather than supernatural ability.

  43. John Harper I don’t follow the grammar argument. To murder is a verb (action). To finesse is quite the grammatical stretch in my mind. Anyway, I prefer snipe over murder, and am personally not particularly enamored with finesse (unlike Mayhem :). Replacing any goal/outcome with a verb that produces said goal/outcome is tautological in nature,  so I’m not convinced by the argument in that sense either.

  44. Well, the grammar issue is not my objective here. Sorry if that was confusing. The issue is how Murder is an outcome with a huge variety of means. I’d like each action on the list to suggest a tighter set of means than that (without being ultra specific). Like I said, a tricky and fun challenge to nail down.

  45. Grumble Grumble, complain complain. Despite what all the commenting might suggest, I’m sure you’ll come up with a good way to put the actions together. I’m sure most of us here feel the same way.

  46. Too bad Mayhem went away,  but I can see and agree with the point.

    I liked Discern better than Observe, though, I feel like discern implies more thought and interpretation of the thing you are observing. You can Discern a book, you can’t Observe it, you can Discern an ambush, you can’t Observe it.

    Christopher Rinderspacher I feel snipe is redundant. What is snipe but Observe with murderous intent and a rifle? Something similar went with the old Stalk. I loved the Stalk ability, but it was totally Finesse/Discern. 

    I feel that BitD can benefit from ultra specific actions (akin to the first QS version) or more general, like these. 

  49. I think that there’s a certain degree to which it’s good that the actions are all a little vague.  Just like the risk level, it’s something the group should come to a consensus on, no?

  54. It looks like reduction in skills and dismissal of effect attributes will shorten campaigns. I remember John citing in one of his first QAs that he was trying to build a system for long-term stories, but at this point it looks like we’ve removed roughly half the advancement options that characters used to have to grow. 

    Also, I am in a similar boat about Murder / Battle: If you’re going to drop murder, it seems like attune and invoke can be themselves handily wrapped together. The same thing can probably said of Observe and Prowl.

    Would you consider paring it down to maybe 9 attributes and regrouping them?

  55. Cami S A pretty simple pair of shifts could restore any longevity to a game lost by shrinking the number of actions.

    One, stop segregating playbook advance experience and action experience. Allow both to feed into an experience pool that could be used on either actions OR playbook advances as desired.

    Two, an open pool of advancements that are not represented on playbooks.

    Between those two shifts, you could play the game for a really, really long time without running out of ways to spend experience. =)

  56. Andrew got what I am thinking mostly about the game. My Players didnt liked the seperated options so much, they were also mostly at a lost to Grant a player an action XP for the last session that was NOT in the field of combat

  57. Also blades is about your crew, not only the characters. I’m gonna kill my players like never before, George Martin style :p

    More seriously, maim them, kill them, throw them in jail so they have to run other characters to get them out… Character creation is fun and fast, they secure some of the advancement through the crew sheet so that’s definitely one way to go.

    As for the second point of Andrew, let’s start a Google doc with universal advancements!

  59. I was posting individual special abilities for a while, but I felt like I was suffocating the community with a barrage of small posts. If someone else wants to start up a Google Doc I can toss some contributions in to it. I’m working on a list for my own hack.

  60. Totally in agreement with Andrew Shields that the segmented advancement ticks action vs playbook vs desperate is needlessly complicated. Just make a single pool then spend 8 to add an upgrade and 5 to add an action point. Then have the playbook advancement list something that happens any point in the game rather than just at the end. You can add an additional point per session if you think you need more

  61. Yep, I agree. Adding points as they come or on desperate rolls keep the flow nice on them. Add the Option to earn XP in Downtime by training could be one of the Downtime moves.

  62. Cami S For context of just one example, my players’ cult crew has been running bi-weekly for 5 months now, since v1 of the quick-start and there isn’t really sign of plateau or running out of compelling advances any time soon. They just got to Tier 1 a few sessions ago (supplanting Baszo and the Lampblacks as Lyssa’s second underboss of the ward) but the new tier is a whole new ball game, and they’re realizing lots of heat and negative faction statuses are more problematic when you poke your head above relative anonymity. So really, by now, the mechanics bolstered by xp are starting to take second place to story needs and social intrigues. 3 or four dice in Command or Vigor isn’t going to get the besmirched noble PC’s family estate back from the leviathan fleet admiral who has claimed it.

    They are a cult too. They have only a few claims yet, plus I am using the idea of awarding long term projects ticks when they cause or experience dramatic things aligned with the deity’s ideals (sinister and alluring). When their “devotion” clock fills, they are awarded a supernatural special ability on the related theme. It doesn’t compete with XP, but it feels like a new tier of ability for contending with the bigger fish they have to fry. They have 2 gangs, lots of cult upgrades, and expertise, but definitely don’t feel powerful, and still mess up plenty. Even with a whisper, adepts, spirit wards, and blessed weapons, supernatural forces still mess them up badly most sessions they show up.

  64. Adam Minnie that mostly makes sense to me. The five sessions I ran of v2 felt slow enough; I mostly mention this because it seems like now a campaign has shrunk from maybe 12+ months to about 12 months. Not a huge change. And as others have said, it’s more likely individual characters pop in and out way before a crew is on top.

    John Harper  I’ve been looking more at the current attribute list, and it’s prompted another observation: maybe seven of them feel like core attributes (Battle, Attune, Command, Invoke, Prowl, Finesse, Sway), and the other five come across as skills (Cipher, Handle, Observe, Stitch, Tinker). The first set control large, critical parts of your character, and the second seem, well, secondary. How good you are at making and breaking codes, or driving, seem far more specific than how well you can talk someone into something or brawl/murder/fight. Do you think separating these out further into some sort of specialization or skill system would be worthwhile? This would obviously necessitate another change to how you figure out your resolve dice, but may be worth it for simplicity?

  65. Yeah, Cami, that’s a really good point. I’m working on the action list today and I’ll definitely take that split into account.

    One factor is the words I’m using. For example, Cipher actually covers all research, study, analysis and academic knowledge — but you have to read the description to learn that. The word has a connotation only to cryptography to modern ears. Same thing for Handle, which is actually meant to be a very broad set of abilities.

  68. Why not offer a pool of ~6 Actions per Attribute and let the Players choose 4 to put into them? So no resolve strong character needs Invoke AND Attune but could have something else?

    Dont be stuck on the fixed action list. The past had shown well enough, people will NEVER be 100% happy with the choice.

    At least for me this would be a perfect balance.

  69. Josephe Vandel I personally like the tight action list being developed, each having an obvious center of focus and then a fuzzy gray area of outlier uses. These restrictions invite creativity in how you use your actions and how you play your character more than if the action list was open to anything like some giant GURPS skill list.

  70. I think that maybe too much energy is going in semantics. Yeah, you might have to read the description to truly know what cipher means, but reading one or two lines is not a problem, never been. 

    As for now I think I never had a problem with the action list, and no one in my groups are native English speakers. Once you know how action works (that is the real difference with other systems) then narrowing down to one action or another is at worst a good dialog exercise on the table, and at best a great way to place yourself in the fiction.

  71. My comment wasn’t about semantics, but scope. Some of the attributes currently seem to cover broader categories, and some much smaller categories. An attribute for first aid is cool, but it seems small and specific compared to an attribute that covers picking locks, sleights of hand, and trap disarming, and that seems smaller than an attribute that covers every variation of combat, ranged and otherwise.

    More general attributes are inherently more valuable, and so the relative value in terms of scope should certainly be considered. Why should I invest an advancement in +1d to first aid, a situational skill, when I could spend that same advancement increasing my ability in every combat? Character reasons, sure, but it does ask a pointed question about how something like Stitch or Tinker or Cipher compare to something like Battle or Sway. Perhaps it’s fine, but it’s at least worth bringing up.

  72. Tinker is incredibly useful and broad — disarming/installing mechanical traps, dismantling/building automatons, repairing/modifying guns, breaking into safes, making poisons, making antidotes, creative pharmacology, etc.

    Cipher, which I think might be better titled Study, is also really useful though maybe not as broad. I mean if you break into city records your gonna need someone with Cipher to figure out which documents you need. Also forged diplomat papers could be really useful as could a forged search warrant. I could see it being broadened to include historical knowledge. Basically like how Invoke includes “spout occult lore”, Cipher could include “spout historical lore” which could be super useful. You could use it to know that, “this part of town was built on top of the buildings of old Duskwall. The old buildings are still down there and might serve as a useful escape route” or “Lord Scurlock is an old vampire. I know from my readings that he was once human and had a fondness for piano music.”

    Now Stitch I’m in agreement that it seems too limited. I’m also not really sure BitD needs a healing skill. It seems like it’s a either you resist and take stress or you don’t and get hurt and then try to get healed during downtime. And hey if Stitch is ditched you could bring back everyone’s favorite Mayhem

  73. “An attribute for first aid is cool, but it seems small and specific compared to an attribute that covers picking locks, sleights of hand, and trap disarming, and that seems smaller than an attribute that covers every variation of combat, ranged and otherwise.”

    A couple of weak points in this argument:

    1) There is no action that covers all variations of combat. Wanna enter a fistfight? Battle. Wanna snipe? Observe. Wanna backstab? Prowl. Maybe.

    2) Its a game of thieves and scoundrels. As for now an attribute controlling picking locks and trap disarm is far more precious that one to kill. Maybe with other crew types this will change.

    I do agree about Stitch. But if I had to defend Stitch, I would say that the fictional possibility of saving a life has a lot of value on its own. 

  74. Yeah Duamn Figueroa totally has it. Prowl for backstab. Also Finesse for stabbing someone right in front of you without them seeing the dagger until it is already gutting them.

  76. Colin Fahrion  / Duamn Figueroa:

    An aside: Finesse explicitly applies to disassembling traps already. Further, it seems a nasty surprise when a would-be thief learns their lockpicking skill (Finesse) doesn’t also cover safes, only all other locks.

    Now, I agree, it’s a game about thieves and scoundrels, and an attribute that covers general thieving is certainly valuable. Notice that I didn’t decry the need for that attribute. Indeed, these attributes are currently defining the genre and play of the game, and they collectively do that well (because, I suspect, John has worked hard to that end). My point was that there are a few attributes that seem generally broader, and I was wondering about reconciling that. I don’t even think any attribute should be removed, per say, but perhaps some should be moved out into a “skill list” or something, separate, due to their relative utility (as per my original comment).

    The rub here seems (to me) that the two of you don’t buy that some of these attributes are less generally applicable. And both of you have argued this by providing examples when some of these more-specific attributes are applicable. But I’m not asking “what is attribute X good for?”; I”m asking, “what can’t a character do without attribute X, and why does that seem larger or smaller than attribute Y?”

    Outlining examples of attribute use doesn’t address this point: PCs get finite attribute points, and thus it’s a matter of opportunity cost. What did I give up when I learned how to Battle? Is it that I cannot do first aid? That seems not bad. But “can’t sneak at all” is a much bigger loss, in the genre, than “can’t pick out fine details”, “can’t perform first aid”, “can’t do research”, “can’t artifice”, or “can’t drive or use a hammer”. Giving up sneaking, or talking to ghosts, or fighting, in order to pick out fine details strikes me as a pretty large opportunity cost. How is it not?

    Similarly, outlining how I can use Observe instead of Battle for sniping only diffuses this point if you would otherwise bar the action. If the cost of not taking Observe is that I cannot Snipe, then perhaps a sniper character who is otherwise unable to fight might invest heavily in Observe. If, however, I could still use Battle for sniping, then taking Observe over Battle is not a good trade-off in the genre (since combat is likely to happen with some frequency). I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t prevent someone from using Battle to snipe in BitD, though; do you think I should?

  77. Cami S The thing is you don’t need nor want everyone in your crew to be good at Battle and Prowl. Just have the person good at that on point lead the team action. Also you seem to be overly interested in perfecting the character build getting the most for your points. Personally I think the choices you take not to have are sometimes more interesting. There is something great about having characters that are lacking skills, say a Cutter who has no Prowl because they are not fucking subtle. Or a Lurk who is easily overwhelmed by too much noise and chaos and so doesn’t have Battle but will certainly sneak up and shank a guard in the back.

  78. There are several factors that you might not be taking into account. Min-maxing is not a good choice. Its a valid choice, but certainly not recommended.

    Remember that you can always roll an action you don’t have. With maneuvers like Push  you can even avoid the hassle of taking the worst roll, or accept devils bargain, or whatever. 

    Rules like attributes, Expert and Mastery upgrades and the way actions are designed encourage diversifying your character- That is a feature the first drafts didn’t executed well. 

    Also: attributes level up fast, if you find yourself not using your maxed action in a couple of session you would be able to place that point somewhere else. 

    And finally, remember that the triggers that unleash the action roll are different from a lot of other games. It is not Situation > Action, but Situation > Description A > Action. If you are in a violent situation and want to respond in accord, you must think in how you want to take action and then proceed to roll. So the same situation can be solved with different actions.  

  79. Cami S Not to mention there is no reason to consider Battle and Prowl the most important, you could totally run a BitD game that was all con jobs without any sneaking or fights.

  80. #theMalkavs  have really few combats, trying never to kill on the job. Not only that: now that Lovelia the Whisper has a murderous ghost at her service they only kill with Attune. 

    #TheNarrowStreetGentlemansClub  is by far more violent. Known for their weapon of choice: the molotov cocktail, 

  82. With the talk about having one character take key skills, I’m curious. Am I the only one using group rolls for these things? If the group is sneaking somewhere or engaged in a large fight everyone at my table rolls, the guy on point just happens to be the one who gets the stress.

  83. Jeramy Ware sounds like you are doing it right. Yeah I was thinking wrong as there isn’t a reason that the person On Point to have the highest action score for a Group Action roll.

  85. Talking of avoiding stress I note on a recent reread that Assist gives anyone a die “When you assist another character, take 1 stress to give them 1 bonus die to their roll. ” Previously I read it as assisting the point man but realised that it can be used to avoid the roll 2 dice use worst situation. This would limit the stress load on the point man while only accruing 1 stress for the assister.

  86. Hi John! Is this still the quickstart or is this more of an “open beta” of the final book? If so, will you make the final pdf exclusive to backers or still open? Nice to see that it’s coming along, gonna try to get some time to get a campaign going with some of my classmates 🙂

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