It took a while, but it was explained to me so I understand it. “Fine” items give you +1 level of success unless you roll 1-3 or a critical. So, they help you on a 4, 5, or 6. Otherwise they don’t matter.
Last night I got to thinking. What if taking stress to help was switched with “fine” items? So, using a fine item gives you +1d, and if you spend 2 stress you can give yourself 1 extra level of success, or someone else can take 1 stress to give you 1 extra level of success. And, this can be done after the roll if necessary.
Really, it fails to satisfy. For me the problem is “if you fail then you just fail and there’s no help.” It takes too many words to explain to players, it feels too arbitrary. Especially since if you succeed you succeed better, with fewer consequences. But only if you succeed.
Still, I’ve played enough and this has been annoying enough to me, I’m starting to consider using the method I proposed months ago.
If you have a fine item, you get +1 on your highest die roll result. A 3 becomes a 4, a 5 becomes a 6, etc.
This has a few advantages. For one, you can still fail if you roll a 1 or 2, but on a 3 you can tip over to success. Also, if you succeed with complications, it can tip you over to not have those consequences. However, it will not give you 2 results of 6.
There’s room for 2 tiers of quality; +1 for fine gear, and +2 for best possible gear. The goal is to show it is still possible to fail, but the gear is still useful.
The main down side is it is the only mechanic that works in that way. Is that a deterrent? Eh. It’s still faster to explain than how quality will only help you if you succeed.
Because of that, I’d branch out and look at how effort works. +1 instead of +1d, for taking stress to help another or help yourself? Making that the same as quality? I could definitely see that, I could even see letting “effort” stack with “quality.”
I think it might be a bit to good. I would suggest that you change one or more ( depending of the item quality) of the dice by a “better” one (1-2,3-4, 5-6).
Or (I will test that tomorrow hopefully) allow them to reroll the best dice of the pool (I definitely like that idea but that’s maybe a little to random to emulate a good quality item).
Hm. Maybe let them reroll any die, in case they get a 6 and want to go for a critical. An interesting take, and one that would be welcome in a game with such small dice pools. A re-roll is a big deal, even of just 1 die.
Of course, at that point, just give them +1d and call it good, right?
Yeah. That’s why I was thinking of allowing to reroll only the best dice.
I could see not wanting a critical to get better, but why not let a success become a critical? That would be really helpful especially for desperate rolls, where there is a complication UNLESS the roll is critical.
I only have access to the drafts and in it (v3) you don’t take stress for a desperate 6.
In my vision, you have 3 possibilities:
-crappy roll. Nothing to lose.
-not si bad. Multiple 4-5. Nothing to lose, but you might get a 6 (no conséquences even in desperate).
-just good enough. One 4 or 5, the other one(s) are bad. And then, rerolling is risky, buuuut you might get a 6 (and that is really interesting).
Isn’t helping someone to increase their effect level already accounted for by the Set Up action?
I personally don’t see the problem with having quality influence the effect level. I don’t see how having a great weapon is really going to help me better succeed at the actual moves and tactics of fighting, but when I do fight well, excellent weaponry will certainly help me be more effective or complete the effort. An awesome katana can more easily make my foe dead than a rusty pocket knife.
Adam Minnie The problem I have is that it feels weirdly inconsistent. It helps if you already succeed, only.
Great gear does help you succeed better, in my worldview. To use your example, a katana’s reach and balance make a difference in how well you can get through defenses.
In a more general sense, better lockpicks make it easier to pick a lock. Fancy clothes do help make a better first impression. You disagree with me on how this works, and that’s cool, but I’m not convinced by your perspective. I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that’s just not how I see it working in my game.
Heng benjamin I was looking at an older version, you are right; no consequence (I think you meant that, not stress) on a 6 for rolling an action.
I also see what you mean about the reroll forcing the player to choose whether or not to risk an existing roll by going for a better one. A good point, but that does make it a lot less tempting unless you get more than one result equally high to begin with.
Thanks for your gracious approach to the difference of opinion Andrew Shields. I appreciate that.
I’m not keen to change how fine works. I think about it the way Adam does.
But I do love to include little details of weapon properties and such in play, so I usually assess those things when determining position and consequences.
Your finely balanced fine dueling sword gives you +1 effect, and also, when you tangle with the thug with a rusty cleaver, you’re in a better position and less vulnerable to their attacks (softer consequences).
John Harper I think the fictional positioning of desperate, risky, and controlled is one of the best things in the system and it allows for mechanical impact of fictional positioning in a tidy and useful way.
A check-point in my own thinking when someone is using a fine item is, “does this item make what they are trying to do possible and that’s it? Or is there advantage beyond that?”
For example, a slide tried to stuff a fine spirit anchor into a ghost’s chest area and trigger it with untrained Invoke. I figured it was possible that could work because it was a fine item, but making such a thing possible was as far as the “fine” got him; no additional advantage.
Earlier in the adventure, a hound tried to use a fine lightning hook to ram a ghost down into an empty book as a spirit anchor. Because it was a fine hook, I allowed him to try it out even though his Invoke was untrained.
That was fictional positioning, not getting into the fine object mechanically assisting. I agree the fictional positioning can be more relevant than other mechanics.
I’m on the side of the rules as written here myself. For example: A really nice camel hair paint brush and good paint isn’t going to improve my skill at painting but if I can succeed at painting something it’ll look a little better. Same thing I think applies to a sword or whatever. Sure a fine well balanced sword is easier to swing with but Battle isn’t just how well you can swing a sword, it’s how well you can fight overall. Someone with no Battle skill is going to suck in a fight no matter how balanced that sword is. But regardless of skill if they can manage to get a blow in then they will likely do more damage with a good sword.
Colin Fahrion I get that not everyone agrees with me. That doesn’t change how I see it, no new information here to change my mind. =) The good news is, you’ll have it you way in the official rules, and I can do whatever wrong-headed thing I want at my game table. =)
Still, sometimes I just can’t shut up. =p. I’ve painted miniatures, and I’m here to tell you, a brush can make all the difference between a globby mess and a pretty serviceable job. You mention how lack of skill isn’t salvaged by an excellent sword, but this is also about people who might be VERY skilled and roll poorly. My experience in shop class taught me that good tools CAN make the difference between a stupid mess and at least a basically serviceable project.
Still, this is not a simulationist game. At the end of the day, I want players to feel like it matters if they use fine gear. Not a guarantee of success, but I do believe the gear can make the difference between success and failure.
Andrew Shields I totally understand as I house rule often in a lot of the game I run. Haven’t run a game of BitD yet so haven’t come up with my list of pet peeves yet.