Seems to me “Skirmish” implies messy, with numbers on each side.
To match the description text, I’d suggest “Duel.” Other possibilities could include Precision, Clash, En Garde, or Fencing. Your mileage may vary. =)
I would also conflate what I understand to be “Murder” with “Skirmish” and leave “Mayhem” as a second. With three categories, that’s pretty fine distinction. Maybe Murder should include things like poison use, managing clues, and some sleuthing (and anti-sleuthing) techniques. That could distinguish it better.
I guess my main problem with murder is that it is one-sided. In that case, the need for a roll gets fuzzier; if the target doesn’t see it coming or cannot defend, then when would you roll it (instead of just succeeding)?
My Hound player got seriously confused between Murder and Combat before, and wasnt happy about learning the distincting while facing 6 Fungi-Mutated Hollows & Bloodtreapers in sudden close combat đ
Murder might be rolled to see if you get away with it without leaving evidence – if your target is truly defenseless, the roll is more around how scot-free the scoundrels are.
Skirmish and Mayhem seem to be about two different bodies of technique used in a fight; it seems it would come down to the way players describe their attacks, and the tools used. So hitting someone with a two-handed sword or a chair is more mayhem, using a knife or a rapier is more skirmish-y.
Different devil’s bargains as well; mayhem lends itself to ‘you cause collateral damage and gain enmity of various NPCs.’
But I guess I don’t see a problem with two skills covering somewhat similar ground. Skirmish applies to duels moreso… Unless the PC wants to take a dainty, haunty noble to the ground and grapple straight over to Pound Town.
One intriguing aspect of game design is sometimes you see the solution without seeing the problem it solved. I would like to know more about why two combat actions split out into three (if murder is indeed a combat action at all now.)
I dont realy know what to so with mayham to be honest and skirmish just replaced combat for me.
I believe these are fictional distinctions for violence. I prefer ‘Skirmish’ to ‘Duel’ because it is expandable. It’s possible to skirmish with a single person, a group, or as part of a group. I think the distinction is that ‘Skirmish’ implies a level of control or skill. ‘Mayhem’ is the perfect mirror of this. You can commit mayhem on a single person (sledge hammer fight, for example), with a group, or as part of a group.
It’s cool that flavor-wise (as in, I wouldn’t apply mechanical penalties), the trinity of Murder, Skirmish, Mayhem fits Blades’ Controlled, Risky, Desperate structure. Murder is the cold-blooded application of controlled force to an unsuspecting target, Skirmish is the risky proposition of combat on equal footing, and Mayhem is the desperate swinging of a heavy weapon.
Josephe Vandel I think the way to handle that situation is to ask how was your Hound fighting the Fungi-Mutated Hollows? Not Murder, because the sudden close combat implies surprise not premeditation. If he saw them first and figured a way to use the environment covertly to eliminate them, that would be Murder.
If he was in control of the situation, fighting with allies or on equal footing within his comfort zone, I would have the player roll Skirmish and describe the outcome as a dramatic fight. If he was swinging wildly with the butt of his crossbow and ducking the raking hands of a swarm of enemies, that’s gonna be Mayhem with all the fictional implications those situations provide.
Benjamin Brown That’s the best and most coherent explanation, and I’d be totally behind that. If the situation is controlled, murder. Risky, skirmish. Desperate, battle. Also lends interesting dynamics when you have characters good at one or two but not all three, who need to confine their combat to where they shine.
Still, couldn’t there be a desperate lunge to murder someone? Or a highly controlled battle where you’re trying to smash up someone’s shop and get out? I could see a player wanting to use skirmish for a duel, but being so much better than the opponent that it was a controlled circumstance.
Sure, but that’s when you’d apply the circumstances to the action. Controlled Mayhem is entirely possible as is Desperate Murder.
I like all the options because it allows for a different flavor for each given situation. Depending on circumstances in the fiction, decide which Action best suits. It depends what the player is trying to achieve within the fiction. Are they trying for something quick and clean, on even ground, or messy and violent? Do the circumstances support or oppose their intended action? I’d look at the scene and go with my gut. Is there crap flying everywhere, heads rolling or ghosts pouring out of underground vents? Mayhem. Are two opposing forces meeting in battle? Skirmish. Is someone trying to slit a throat? Murder. Then apply the relevant Action roll as demanded by the fiction.
Benjamin Brown I think suggesting each action type fits a circumstance, but noting that they can of course operate outside that circumstance, may be the best way to go. I have a sense of what’s desperate, risky, and controlled as a default, and that’s a great way to classify the violence.
That might run the risk of over classifying the Actions, leading to a kind of simple binary (Risky = Mayhem) while I think it’s just a neat design parallel. Blades is about fictional positioning, so really what it comes down to is asking the player how they intend to accomplish something then applying the Action and Roll that best fit.
Benjamin Brown The trick here is getting a common understanding between the players about what an action represents. As Josephe Vandel noted earlier, it is awkward to think you can use one action in a situation and be told that’s not what it is for.
The goal here is clarity. As I run the game, I need to be clear and be able to communicate to others what a single-word action means. We all decide what to use where, but when different people have very different ideas of what an action is, that’s the wrong kind of challenge and conflict.
I’d risk a little over-classifying in exchange for better clarity on how the actions apply.
I guess the simplest classification is in the Quickstart – Mayhem = Blunt, Heavy, Fist weapons. Skirmish = Fast, Precise, Dueling weapons. I imagine you could profitably use these distinctions alone and be no poorer for it
I dunno, it seems more of a style to me. You could use a knife for any of the three.
After thinking about this a bit more, if we were going to have 3 combat actions I’d kind of prefer “Ranged”, “Melee,” and “Unarmed.” It’s still clear, and you’d still get the same advantage in all 3 circumstances.
Less artsy, sure, but at least it’s clear.
I suppose what appeals to me is the murkiness. In my first playtest the crew got tangled up in a nasty alley fight. The Lurk lost her weapon (Skirmish, devil’s bargain) fighting one of her mark’s escorts and was pinned to the ground by another. By that point, the fight had devolved to a whirling ruck with combatants stumbling over each other, hurling bottles and slashing wildly, so I had the players start rolling Mayhem, either Risky or Desperate depending on how well they fictionally positioned themselves.
To just give the three base taxonomic skill types rather than Action Descriptors would have simply required me to say “Alright. Roll ranged. Roll melee. Roll melee.” There are already plenty of games where actions and consequences are that plainly delineated, but that’s not what draws me to Blades in the Dark.
I’ve felt more like a vicious, brutal thug during my training with the rapier than when I’ve used any other weapon, for what it’s worth. Grabbing someone, shoving them to the ground, and ramming a blade through them about a dozen times is basically the desired end goal of any duelist.Â
That’s why I prefer the duality of Murder and Mayhem. I don’t actually believe that the concept of ‘Skirmish’, of skillful combat and dueling, exists outside of surprising someone and Murdering them, or smashing, bashing, breaking, and otherwise causing Mayhem. One exists when you’re facing off against someone and trying to get one over on them in order to kill them while they’re unable to attempt the same to you (which is what all dueling is, for instance), and one exists when chaos is all around you and you’re trying to survive and thrive within the random madness of battle.
I also believe this is more in keeping with a game about assassins, thieves, and thugs.
Yeah, to me the combat mechanics are pretty tertiary to why I like Blades in the Dark. My focus is on the heist structure and the downtime turn mechanics.Â
I feel like there’s enough distinctiveness in the gear quality, three types of circumstances, and group activities that I don’t need the actions to be ambiguous too.
Mayhem IMHO isn’t just about dealing with chaos, but also about creating it. Using explosives, grenades, instigating a riot, essentially terrorism.
Murder is really about sniping and getting away unscathed, the emphasis being on the latter (notice how it is now part of resolve instead of vigor/blade; I think guile could’ve been appropriate as well). This could include poisoning, backstabbing, shooting from cover across large distances, taking out a tire of a moving vehicle.
Then Skirmish leaves overt physical confrontation as in a street blockade to beat up another gang, dojo storm, etc. But Skirmish seems to be the weakest sauce to me too. At least for a Thieves Crew.
Oh sure, Murder and Mayhem cover a lot of ground, given how they represent modes of operation. Big loud and brutal, small quiet and vicious. Which leaves Skirmish as the wrong man out, since it’s more about the kind of arena rather than the kind of action.
Just my two cents, using the implicit meaning of the words (as I’m understanding them) :
Mayhem is not about killing. It’s about making noises, creating diversion, surviving in Ă brawl.
Murder is about being silent and deadly, but you’d have a hard time drawing attention with it if you are good at it. And you don’t murder 24 blue coats at a time !
Skirmish rings some bells related to tactics, mass combat, hide and seek and chases. ï»ż
Heng benjaminâ at least for me skirmish hasn’t coalesced into a coherent and sufficiently distinct action. As it stands, I view it as a fairly narrowly defined action that can be covered by the 2 broader violence options.ï»ż
Christopher Rinderspacher I think Skirmish and Mayhem are the two fight moves. Skirmish for a controlled conflict and Mayhem for wild, destructive conflict.
IE: The Crew faces off against a gang of Bluecoats armed with short truncheons. Skirmish. Someone produces a two-handed sword, starts flailing around. Mayhem. Someone slips up from behind, puts a dagger between his ribs. Murder.
FWIW I’m not 100% happy with the action set yet. I keep messing with it, and will continue to do so a bit more.
Regarding “skill overlap” in Blades, it’s infinite. Everything overlaps with everything else, in terms of achieving goals. The actions say what you do, not what you accomplish.
If it was set in stone then there would not be any point in discussing it further. You just figure out how to work with what’s there or house rule it if you must.
I hope these conversations about actions come across as more reflective and thinking it through rather than demanding or critical. =) I am sure you will end up in a different place than my thoughts, but seeing thoughts and perspectives can sometimes shake loose new and useful ideas. =)
They’re super helpful!