Ran my first session last night and I was hoping for some feedback on how I handled actions and dice rolls.
Baszo Baz offered our PCs a job. He said “I want you to get something for me,” and handed them a blueprint of the Red Sash temple, making it clear the PCs should damn well be able to figure out what to do. None of them were willing to call him on it and, you know, actually ask what they were stealing. Instead they tried to puzzle it out based on the blueprint. Trying to do something that you could screw up sounded like a roll to me (although now I’m not so sure). I made it a four-segment clock.
Our Whisper rolls her Cipher and takes the Devil’s Bargain of having Baszo realize the gang aren’t as knowledgable as they pretend. She succeeds but only fills in 2 segments – and this success took forever as she failed her Controlled roll and then did a Risky roll and then did an effect roll. And there was still to be more rolling to puzzle the map out!
The gang’s defacto leader accepts to job even without them knowing fully what it is and takes the map back to HQ. At this point my GM instincts are saying “Just give it to them,” but we want to try this thing properly so she rolls Cipher and also takes a Devil’s Bargain of needing to tap a corrupt contact in the city planner’s office who can help interpret the blueprints but does not have the tightest lips. She rolls her effect and – thank gods – fills the clock.
Narratively, I liked that we introduced a new NPC and influenced Baszo’s perception of the PCs. But the rolling for this took forever. Is there a different way I should have handled this? Is it just a matter of having facility with the system? Thanks for your input!
Sounds great Keith! But don’t forget that not every action roll needs an effect roll. If its not worthy of a clock as a ‘big’ obstacle, then just move on to the score… Even better, start ‘in media res’ halfway through, with the characters in hot water post reading the blueprints all wrong.
Remember that timing in Blades isn’t linear. You can retcon all the time via flashbacks and simply doing an ‘Oceans Eleven’ or ‘Snatch’ number all over the plot you generate as you play.
I agree with Nathan – if you want a roll but don’t want something to be a potential multi-step obstacle, you don’t gotta use the clock. I can see how reading through the rules encourage clock-based thinking though.
I believe in the third rev of the game, there’s no ‘retry roll but riskier’ option when an action roll fails. I can see the appeal of having that mechanism, but at the same time, as you saw, it lead to one act bogging down a bit.
You could always let the scoundrels automatically see the most important part of the schematic, the thing to steal, but maybe they don’t see some complicating factors – obviously the bluecoats are monitoring this building on the sly from here, this twist probably houses some echoes, if not outright ghosts, and these vents aren’t for air but for automated sentries. Mechanically speaking, they’d have (3rd rev again) fewer dice for their engagement roll to see how strong their plan is.
I too am in the “There really shouldn’t have been a clock for that” faction.
Also, I think there’s a problem with “re-roll at a riskier position” thing in general (which may be why it’s mostly missing from the 3rd rev) – namely, I feel like everyone is/was trying to use it was ignoring the fiction. They’re just kinda going “Oh, well, I blew it, but I’ll just roll again at harder.” rather than figuring out why their position was now risky/desperate and what that new attempt MEANS.
For example, how does the situation of decoding the map get more risky? I’m not sure it can, so you might not be able to re-roll.
There is a useful analogy that the system is like a guitar, and different groups will play it differently. So there’s no one right answer to your question of “did I do this right?” If it worked for your group, you did just fine!
I do have some other thoughts for ways you could riff on that particular situation.
I like to get my players invested in the game by emphasizing their competence right off the bat. Especially if you had a lurk or someone you think would know what the blueprints reveal, tell them what. And make up another useful detail or two that they see. Get them thinking their characters are competent thieves. Or, give someone spotlight time. Either way, let them be cool. Save the clock and rolling for when you need tension.
OR, ask a player to make up the details of what they see on the map. Get them involved in co-creating the scenario right away, and be ready to pounce on any detail they put out there to center the heist around.
OR, let them puzzle it out and fill the clock because they will realize Baz thinks he’s clever and wants one thing, but they’ve cracked a secret and they know there’s something else in there that’s even better, and they can kill two birds with one stone by snagging both on their raid. (At that point it’s worth the extra system investment.)
OR, jump straight from deciphering the blueprint to standing at the spot they identified, and let them use flashbacks to figure out how they got in, what went wrong, and how they’re getting out!
OR, the blueprint is cursed, and each escalation reveals more of the one looking at it to the whisper defending the site, and also plants more misinformation.
Anyway. The rules should focus on what the players want to do. If they want to linger over an interaction or detail, focus on it. Let it become more important to the job and how they do the job. Steer into their interests, so whatever they focus on BECOMES a central issue in the coming heist.
I think it is helpful to came at the heist from the perspective that the GM’s job is not to faithfully represent the impartial world as it reacts to character actions.
No, the GM’s job is to wrap the world around character actions, so the unforeseen character actions are what drive and illuminate the world. Whatever they do, that is the window that shows the game group what the world is like.
In games like this, the characters are not so much exploring the world as provoking and guiding its creation.
Functionally, you probably end up in the same place. This idea can help guide how you respond to both the system and character actions.
(I really hope this doesn’t sound as pretentious as it feels. I’m just gonna hit post before I change my mind.)
I think a lot of people have been saying that all the rolling bogs stuff down since it looks like John Harper has gotten rid of effect rolls in his preview of the next version of the quick start. I tried this in for the hack I’ve been working on (2nd session is tonight), and I liked what it did to the flow.
Hey Keith Stetson,
1. Advance the fiction.
I cannot stress this enough: when you make a roll something happens. This is the #1 most important thing to remember.
Like you don’t try a thing. Freeze. Try it harder. Freeze. Try it harder. Freeze. Then outcomes happen. When you go down the problem chart the situation is fluid. It’s not frozen, just the camera is on the player.
Player rolled. It didn’t work. How does that put them in a risky situation? Do they pick up the map, and now have to question Baszo without him noticing? Do they go outside and try to mingle with his crew and get some tips or hints? If nobody can figure out how this works, then maybe it doesn’t go to risky. Feel free to ask them: Ok how are you trying a risky roll?
Then you don’t get the ‘this takes too bloody long’ problem because cool shit is happening and the stakes are going up and everyone is excited and the story is ongoing rather than just waiting for 3 rolls before anything happens.
On Clocks: When you make a clock actions that fill it move time forward (keep this in mind when making clocks in the first place). If you decipher part it’s not ‘well you get nothing till it’s done’ you get something that leads you forward. “Oh this is this encrypting technique. This faction or type of person uses that.” “Well I don’t know what all we’re to get, but the map is signed, maybe if you talk to X he’ll be able to help.” “No, but you have enough clues to scope the place out, go do some prowling to figure out the rest”.
I use the catchphrase: “Clocks move time forward” to remember this. We say this a lot at the table.
2. GM: This happens. Player: NOPE!
There’s a very counter-intuitive thing Blades does. Players get to say No and pay in Stress.
“So hey you got robbed.” “NOPE. Yeah, let’s not have that happen.” “Oh really? How’s that?” “Let’s roll Lair and take some Stress. They grabbed some cash, but it was all flash, our actual loot is hidden away further in. I made sure it was locked up there myself.”
“You get stabbed.” “NOPE. Let’s see how much it costs me to have it only LOOK bad.”
So let’s take a look in your scenario:
GM: “Baszo indicates that you should know what to do.”
Player: “I try to decipher it even if I look like a freshman on campus since I don’t know what’s up in front of him” roll, fail
GM: “So you fail to read the map. Guess you’re stumped and leave empty handed?”
Player: “NOPE. I think I get us at least the target info.”
GM: “Oho? And how are you doing that?”
Player: “Well I can’t read the map and get all the details, but I think I’m going to read Baszo here. I know how much jobs pay normally. I know how much he’s giving us. I read his stance. Is this a dude asking us to do murder or pick up something fancy? I know the Sashes. They’re all swordsmasters? If we’re robbing them we’re probably getting some special sword yeah?”
GM: “So you’re resisting this with Insight?”
Player: “Yeah.” rolls, pays stress
GM: “Ok so yeah. This is not a ‘head’ price. Also you folks are not all cutters, and the Sashes are all bad-ass swordmasters he’s not asking you to go up against someone way out of your league in a fight where they’re strong. You are stealing a sword” etc.
3. Try another Way.
I’ve found that “this door is 8 segments thick” is just a bad clock unless it’s a long term project “decipher book: 8 segments” which is shorthand for “this will just take time”. But sometimes it’s the only thing that makes sense. So be up front with the players on the problem and then suggest they find other ways around things. I have to occasionally remind my players of this – but they’ve gotten used to this.
GM: “The walls are heavily patrolled as are the grounds. We’re talking 10 segments of elite guards you have to bypass.”
Players: “Yeeeeeah, let’s air drop in or go in through the sewers. Someone start the flashback.”
GM: “Air drop eh? And just how would you go about doing that?”
Players: “So we have a Whisper with Attune 3 and some Tempest. Maybe we get a wind. And Quess there has Tinker or SOMEONE has enough supply or consort to get us some kites for the glide in.”
GM: Has Whisper make some rolls. Removes guard segment clock. Adds new “feeling cocky about our external guards” six-segment internal security clock. “Right, so now that you’re past the perimeter defenses…”
The fiction changes. You have guards on a wall? Maybe have the cutter bring demo tools, and bust a hole where they think they’re strong. The equation changes (instead of ‘bypass guards’ you have a tight ‘and you’re swarmed’ timing clock) – but you don’t always have to come at them where they’re strong.
In your example: Oh I didn’t get to read the map? Baszo realizes we’re chumps? No problem. Who has a contact/friend that can read this for them. We’ll solve this outside this meeting. What you want to roll Consort to find some academic that will crack it? Ok but you might have to pay them a coin based on the roll – etc.
Encourage your players to think laterally. Encourage them to look for different ways. Adapt to the fiction and their strategies and you’ll find the game is pretty forgiving/flexible.
Stras Acimovic super helpful! Your advice should go somewhere in the book. I think the mechanics were drawing my attention away from the fiction and this really helped tie them back together.
Some of this stuff is counter-intuitive as I said. The NOPE thing takes a serious while to get used to. Players just have a lot of trouble with being able to gainsay a GM. There’s some serious baggage with GM authority and setting down canon/facts in a game through statement that’s really hard to break.
I’ve been running this a lot (seriously I think in terms of hours/sessions this has been tops the last 2 years), and I’ve had to teach myself to do this, and talk with a bunch of players that were frustrated and had questions.
Stras Acimovic Really well said; I was trying to get to part of that with my comments on roll escalation, but you really spelled it out clear and plain. Definitely good advice.
I think what you described is totally legit, the second roll produced more narrative content which was cool and ok. Next time if such should go more smooth or realy easy make a 2 Segment clock (which makes it instant unlocked Except for bad rolls) or ask for a roll success WITHOUT asking for effect. It dont need to be a clock for everything.
I had two Teams of 2 Players fighting on different locations at the same time. Each demon/undead creature was a 10-Clock, the first Team nearly died in a dragging fight against the corpse golem, the second team had 3 crits on their first action and effect rolls and instant kill the armored Nightstalker demon before it could Even look them into the eyes. Ok first Team was Slide & Whisper with near zero fighting skills and second was a Lurk/Hound overkill. But you can see how different such can be, depending in the mix of Teams.
Stras Acimovic do you use clocks for every obstacle? If not, what do you do when not using clocks?
Keith Stetson You can always go with a binary yes/no success, and consider it a clock with one segment. =)
Keith Stetson no. Clocks have a dozen uses, but they are not meant for everything.
In general you make clocks to set up multi-step or multi-presence obstacles, or to sort-of indicate difficulty.
Is someone’s office locked? Then one roll might open it. Need to find a contact? One Consort roll can find you who you need. Want to sneak across the garden? One Prowl roll might be what you need.
There’s a great handout on clocks in the QS that I won’t repeat (about tug of war clocks, alarm clocks etc). But when setting up a set of problems I add a clock for multi step problems (Security System) that you can move through piecemeal at a time (overcome a lock in one roll, then clock’s not done, so there’s probably a tripwire that can be cut in one roll, then clocks still not done so the desk probably has security…), or to indicate a problem that’s too hard to overcome in one move (this eight clock represents Ulf and his band of Blades. No you can’t kill them all with one Battle roll) where you can take out some but not all of the problem.
When it’s a single source problem (yeah this 8 clock is the leader of the Red Sashes) then the they can get wounded the battle can move to new locations as your blades flash etc. This is usually a difficulty thing (you can’t just ace her in one blow) and I tend to use it very sparingly since it can feel like grinding something out.
The other time we see clocks is when a roll fails and doesn’t complete a problem. You roll risk. Get partially there. Now they have a clock to represent an unfinished threat. So there are actions that will spontaneously generate clocks (a danger manifests!).
Generally I don’t think there’s a one true way to do it. Like there isn’t a clear list of X is the only right way to do it. Just remember that clocks are a tool for you rather than a constraint. Come up with some useful shorthands, and try to be consistent so your players know what to expect.
Sras is wise 🙂