One of my players wants to know if Murder can be used if the intention is to wound but not fatally…
One of my players wants to know if Murder can be used if the intention is to wound but not fatally…
One of my players wants to know if Murder can be used if the intention is to wound but not fatally…
I would say it is up to the table, but my default would be Mayhem there.
I recall that Murder is for precise fighting, so I’d say it depends on whether you’re bashing someone to the ground or artfully thrusting through their shoulder to disable them.
My question would be about method rather than outcome. Murder seems to be about doing violence quickly, quietly, and professionally. Mayhem seems to be about just that: big, loud, and brash violence.
So, if they want to sneak up on someone and use a razor-sharp knife to sever a tendon and prevent escape, I’d call that Murder. If they grab someone on the street, roll them onto the ground and break their arm with brute force, I’d call that Mayhem.
it would be nice to hear what John’s intent is here, I love the names murder and mayhem, but they do imply some things that might be misleading I’ve generally been acting under the assumption that if you roll murder and succeed you murder them dead.
I see those categories as having a center, rather than defining a circumference. “What is it most like?” rather than “What is allowed here?”
To me, a major part of the system concept is focused on as few as possible moving parts, then just making decisions on the fly, where the greatest authority is how the group wants to handle it rather than what’s in print.
To me, the intent is definitely using murder for a precision strike; it’s using the talents involved in murder, even if the end is a little to the left (so to speak.)
Although in other discussions it’s clear I’m not quite on the same page as John Harper himself, I’ve moved towards Murder as inflicting harm on people who are not expecting it, unable to defend themselves, or otherwise somehow at disadvantage. Mayhem is for fair fights.
So yes, instead of stabbing someone in the throat while he sleeps you can instead stab somewhere less lethal and still roll Murder. If you’re fighting each other you can’t use Murder to wound or to kill; you’re in Mayhem territory.
I think the character’s position is just as important too. The whole Action / Position / Effect paradigm is mutable and not prescriptive.
Evenly matched in a fracas and you just want to just wing them? Sounds like risky mayhem to me. Deepest night, unsuspecting and from the shadows? Controlled murder for sure.
This also informs the result. Roll poorly on the action roll and oh, well you face the danger… which in this case, its you murder them instead of just bleeding them a little. No need for effect. Oops. Whatcha gonna do now?
I think the Arlyn example in the QS02 contradicts Murder as covert action. In general I would caution against hyperfocussing the actions. The term murder engenders any kind of intended killing that is illegal and as an action should include all related actions, not just backstabbing.
Mayhem on the other hand implies chaos and noise, lack of control, such as setting explosives, using grenades, navigating a busy battlefield, generating confusion/terror. It’s far less a pin-point attack than a shield-bash on one opponent followed by a sword thrust to the soldier behind the original target.
I keep turning this over and over and keep coming back to it being about table precedent as to which skill to use. Another question I have is intent. Why did the player want to injure but not kill? Was it to intimidate/make them do something? That could move it over to command or sway.
George Pitre I think part of this is, to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You want to use a technique that has a high dice pool to do what you want.
If you’re the talky sort, you’ll want to creep them out with a monologue. If you’re the stabby sort, you’ll want to get their full attention with some blood and pain to start the conversation. If you’re the sneaky sort, you’ll crouch on their bed and wake them up to chat.
Those attempts to intimidate may have dice pools that flow from the character’s strength. Method may trump goal when it comes to picking an action.
What’s nice about the BitD system is the guy who has a good murder/mayhem also has a reasonable chance of having some command as well. The grouping of skills is very well done.
Regarding Murder: See page 19 of the QS, wherein it describes a fight between Arlyn (a PC) and a Red Sash. “…Arlyn’s player chooses Murder for her action. She draws her fighting knives and rushes at the Red Sash, attacking and maneuvering in close combat.”
See also page 30:
*Mayhem* wrecks with savage force; brawl and wrestle; fight in a group skirmish.
*Murder* a target with precision violence; execute a killing and leave little evidence; engage in skillful combat.
I think it would be difficult to use Murder in a gang fight or Mayhem in a duel. Difficult, though not impossible. In the gang fight, if my little murderer can get away from the chaos and lure an enemy to him, he could bring his skills to good use, but he might be branded a coward for what could appear as running away to create that needed space. Likewise, Mayhem in a duel could be used, but there would likely be collateral damage that might create complications after (or during!) the fight.
I view it the other way. One on one combat can go with either skill, but an arranged duel at dawn, with seconds, can’t be Murder. You’re not murdering at all! Now, when facing off with rapiers or pistols it’s hard to see how it’s Mayhem either. A fancy, precise duelist’s blade? A single shot? Duels may not neatly fall in either purview. They’re middle ground.
There’s no official word on where that should go, and that’s probably fine. Decide as a group and be consistent.
My leanings are that Mayhem is the grab-bag of hurting people and Murder is the specific case of killing (or wounding) when it’s sneaky, underhanded, quiet, and precise. Duels aren’t that, unless you sneak a pistol into the sword fight; that’s a skullduggerous Murder advantage.. Neither are street fights, unless you wait for the fight to move past you and then slip in to stab someone in the back.
You can, of course, decide that Murder is the general case of causing harm and Mayhem is for when it’s especially loud and messy, so shooting or bayonetting an enemy is Murder, even in a fair fight, but lobbing grenades or hacking them to pieces with oversized cleavers and laughing as blood spatters everywhere is Mayhem.
Daniel Helman , formal duels (to the death) are illegal throughout Europe, USA, and Canada, and have been for centuries. Any death resulting from such a duel is a murder. Furthermore, a look at murder statistics in the US will show you that backstabs aren’t anywhere on the radar.
I’m running Blades in the Dark tonight, so I’ve been digging around trying to get as much as possible in my head. In looking at the character creation page of the quickstart, it says Murder is “Murder a target with precision violence; execute a killing and leave little evidence; ENGAGE IN SKILLFUL COMBAT.” (emphasis mine.)
Yeah, this is not AW, and I think some people have trouble shifting gears. Murder is not Cool, though it may sometimes resemble it. Other times, it behaves completely differently.