OK, we played a second one-shot this weekend. I have two rules questions about the Effect roll (sort of a continuation of questions from this post: https://plus.google.com/116717584408386390013/posts/4c4uVHrjyCP)
But first I wanted to point out that the setting and character creation generated some really really great stuff, and the development rolls at the end of our first score seemed really good to me, too.
So, the rules questions. Here’s the situation:
Our crew broke into the grounds of a noblewoman’s estate to raid her mausoleum. Young Ned led the patrolling groundskeepers away from us. One series of bad rolls later and Young Ned is being hunted and is nearly cornered.
Young Ned has no choice but to hide against a tree, face pressed against the bark, camouflage cloak raised. He’s in a Desperate situation where the danger is that the groundskeepers will find him.
He rolls a 2.
“It gets worse! First, you face a more potent effect from the danger (-1 to your resistance result level). Then, choose: Abandon this goal (you can’t achieve it for now) or try again by taking a bigger risk and rolling a desperate move.”
First question: this is an example of the danger manifesting, right? Just like in the Desperate results for ‘6’ and for 4/5′? (If so, it might be worth adding that wording into this result.)
And that ‘danger manifesting’ requires Young Ned to roll to resist the effect?
Second question: Does ‘the danger manifests’ equal ‘the danger happens’?
Our group disagreed about that. In this situation, I proposed that you rolled to resist the effect and took Stress to avoid it (being discovered) happening. So for instance, if you had to take 4 Stress perhaps Young Ned had to hold his breath for 90 seconds while the guards talked right next to the tree he was hiding by.
The alternate position was that the danger had actually and concretely manifested as a result of getting a ‘2’ on the Action roll. Ned had been discovered and we were rolling to determine how much Stress he took from that happening. There’s an example on page 12 of the Quick Start that backs up that interpretation: Arlyn fails her roll and therefore falls, but avoids harm by taking 2 Stress.
(If we applied my interpretion to Arlyn’s example: when she fails her Action roll in fighting the Red Sash on the rooftop, Arlyn wouldn’t fall: instead she’d … say, strain her muscles as she nearly loses her balance and grabs hold of a nearby crumbling chimney.)
The difference between these two interpretations seems important (and it may already be in the rules and I’m just missing it):
Interpretation 1: Thieves can’t really fail; they take Stress to avoid having their situation change drastically and negatively
Interpretation 2: Thieves can fail and their situation can change drastically; they take Stress in order to avoid harm when the situation changes.
My understanding is that you take stress to avoid taking a lasting effect; the fiction only changes enough to reflect that. Spending stress does not negate facing the fictional effect of a bad roll. So, Interpretation 2, but you could swap out “harm” for a “lasting effect”.
Even though harm is used in the Arlyn example, the harm would actually be represented by a lasting effect. Arlyn still falls (the fictional effect still occurs), but Arlyn doesn’t suffer a lasting effect.
Looking at the Arlyn example on page 12, I think it might benefit from the actual danger being more explicit (twisted ankle, broken leg, etc) and the harm terminology being shifted to incorporate the lasting effect mechanics.
Unless, of course, I have it totally wrong 😛
First question: Yes, the danger manifests. And it manifests worse than it would normally be.
But you don’t always have a roll for Effect (just like not every Effect roll is preceded by an Action roll). If the danger is completely binary, maybe the “it manifests/it doesn’t” is all you need. You roll when you need to see how much effect the Action had or you want to set a cost in stress to minimize the danger, which goes into your second question.
Page 24 is helpful. You take stress to minimize the effect of the danger. This doesn’t make the danger not happen; it does. But it happens much less.
So in your case, I think it would be reasonable to go a number of ways. You could say that in this case there’s no Effect roll because getting caught means getting caught red-handed, surrounded, bad news all around. You could also have an Effect roll. “Just when you thought you were safe, the groundskeeper sucks in a huge breath and bellows, ‘He’s here!’ Roll Effect.” Paying stress, or rolling really well on Effect and not having to, means the danger of being caught manifested; you’ve been spotted. But it’s not as bad as that; no hue and cry. Maybe you realize the groundskeeper is about to find you before he does. Maybe you have a moment to react as he takes that breath to shout. Whatever it is, you have a chance. You’ve edited the fiction by paying stress.
In this case, because of that failure on Desperate, you can’t try for the same thing anymore. Hiding’s a bust. You could go for Mayhem to maybe knock the groundskeeper senseless before he raises the alarm, but then your hiding place is blown. You could try to take him hostage. You could flee. You could try to bribe him.
You can go for a bigger risk and go for another Desperate move for the same thing, but in this case I’m not sure what more risk there is than being found while hiding. If you think of one, by all means offer raising the stakes. Maybe throwing something precious in the hopes that it creates a distraction—which could also be a devil’s bargain.
John’s post Don’t Roll Twice for the Same Thing
https://plus.google.com/+JohnHarper/posts/BND5Jujm6WB
agrees with your interpretation 2.
Basically, the Action roll and the Effect roll each have a concrete effect on the fiction: the former determines whether something happens or not, and the latter how much of that event manifests or how bad it is.
So yeah, (2) the danger happens no matter what. That’s what the Action roll determined. If Young Ned doesn’t want to take the full effect of facing the danger (the full effect may be being surrounded, being knocked out, being captured, being knifed in the guts, etc.) then (1) Young Ned needs to make an resistance roll (with -1 level to result) to see how much stress he’ll have to take to avoid the consequences of facing the danger.
That’s a great link, Oliver Granger. Quoting from it:
For example, Arlyn is dueling a Red Sash on the roof. The Red Sash drives her back with a flurry of feints and slashes, and there’s a danger that Arlyn will be forced over the edge during the skirmish. Arlyn’s player makes an Action roll to see how her counter-attack goes and if the danger manifests. She rolls badly and the danger manifests. This means that Arlyn is forced over the edge and falls off the roof.
But she can roll to resist, right? Yes. She can resist the harm that results from the fall (using Force, presumably). But she shouldn’t roll to resist being forced over the edge. That’s already been determined by her Action roll. The resistance roll answers “how bad is the fall?” Does she simply take some stress and catch herself on a railing on the way down, or does she end up with a lasting effect as she breaks her leg when she hits the street?
That makes things pretty clear. I’ll have a more thorough read of it after I’ve finished cooking dinner…
Yep, interpretation 2 is correct.
I’m altering some terminology to make this clearer in the text. For now, think of a Resistance roll as resisting harm.
The bad thing happens (because of the Action roll) but you can resist the harm it causes.
Also, Steve, check out the Quick Start v2. That text (“don’t roll twice”) is in there, and I think it’s clearer on this topic than the first QS was.
Thanks, everyone. John Harper , thank you for pointing that out: I had a thorough read of Version 2 last night and I think it’s much clearer.
I saw three sections of the Quick Start text where I felt like there were opportunities to draw this out more.
— — —
Overview, ‘The Characters’ (pg.3): You could set the players’ genre expectations in this section: that their characters won’t always succeed, but they’re resourceful, resilient and tough. One option is to add a sentence about the characters being underdogs (similar to “The purpose of danger and stress”, pg.16). It could read something like:
“The characters start out as huge underdogs with incredible amounts of luck that allow them to survive against dangerous odds.”
–––Resist the Danger (pg.12): When talking about the danger manifesting, would it be useful to split it up into two ideas:
i) the danger happening
ii) the negative consequences of the danger.
If so, you could rewrite the start of the ‘Resist the Danger’ section. For example:
“When a danger manifests, the danger happens (for instance, you are discovered, you fall, or you activate the death trap). You then have two choices:
# suffer the negative consequences of the danger
# avoid the negative consequences by making a Resistance roll.
If you choose to make a Resistance roll, you’ll roll a number of dice (see the ‘Resistance Roll’ sidebar, right) to find out how much stress it will cost to avoid the negative consequences.“
–––The purpose of danger and stress (pg.16): You could add a sentence to the third paragraph of this section, and make a few minor adjustments (including breaking up the fourth paragraph) to emphasise your point. Something like:
The purpose of threatening harm is not always to inflict it, it’s to describe it. On a failed action roll, the danger actually happens (the character is discovered, falls, or activates the death trap). The threats become manifest in the minds of everyone playing.
“The ghost is entangled with your soul.”
“You hear the bone snap as you hit the cobblestones.”
“You can tell that she’ll never trust you again.”
The danger has happened and its bad outcome is spoken aloud. The threat of it hangs there in the room as horrible potential. It’s scary.
Then the player gets to roll their resistance, look you in the eye and say, “No. It’s not that bad. I take the stress instead.”
Excellent feedback, Steve. Thank you!