Say when pulling the job you decide to ambush the guards, say use force for effect, but only get a partial success so take 2 of their 4 segments.
How could you follow that up?
Also what does that represent in narrative terms?
Say when pulling the job you decide to ambush the guards, say use force for effect, but only get a partial success…
Say when pulling the job you decide to ambush the guards, say use force for effect, but only get a partial success…
My first question is “why do they have a clock if you don’t know?”
The action would succeed, in this case the attack, but the effect to remove all guards wouldn’t be achieved.
The guards might be injured, dazzled or alike but still standing and maybe one starts screaming for reinforcement. There might be other guards which have to be overwhelmed.
This is my biggest worry about the mechanic – does it cause you to over-abstract things? To move too far from the fiction and too close to just manipulating game terms and pushing down clocks? I think it’s something I’ll have to see in practice, but I wonder if anyone who’s play tested will comment.
I like the actually play in the book, but everything is great and overcome in a single roll, I would like to see some examples of were multiple actions and effects are done to overcome obstacles.
I didn’t want to do a full narrative, but say two examples.
1. They have broken into a manor to steal something which is protected by guards
2. They ambush a convey
In both cases they are protected a Guard obstacle of 4 segments.
So in both cases the attack has been successful but the obstacle has not been totally overcome.
John Ryan, effect rolls and clocks are always optional mechanics, and over-relying on them can be to your detriment.
(as always, I’m not John, so I’m not right, but I have been playtesting for a while)
In this case, it seems like we know the sitch: ambushing a bunch of guards before anybody notices, with an effect roll to determine the scope (did we get all the guards), but the details matter a lot, and will dictate what happens.
If this was a controlled roll where 4 well-positioned blades were knocking out 4 separate guards on their rounds, then two of them were taken out, and two of them…the moment’s not quite right, the angles aren’t right for doing it cleanly, either:
a) leave them alone and they’ll eventually discover their friends are missing (maybe even some blood stains with force), setting up a time clock
or
b) you need to make the move across a larger stretch of ground then you’d hope: it’s now risky to off them without anybody noticing.
On the other hand, if this was a desperate plan of “run up, kill the four guards, grab their key and bust in before any of them can yell”, well, guess what, two of them are dead, you’re struggling with two, and they’re shouting for the guards.
And if these are four drunk barely paid, barely trained guards and the blades are so much awesomer and well-positioned, then no effect roll on that controlled success at all, they’re gone.
But maybe put another way: if you know what the fictional effect is, then you don’t need an effect roll. It’s only there where you’re uncertain of the scope of an action (or for resistance).
As far as I understood those clocks are to determine a certain scope of an action or resistance.
So a very good guard, with name, history, training and all, would e.g. a clock of 6. If an action is taken like murdering the guard it should be taken into account that if the clock only ticks 4 fields the guard is still alive even though the action was successful.
Otherwise in that example where a guard gets shoved down stairs and appears later on and there are rolls to determine if the guard actually been dead and broke his neck, there wouldn’t be a need to roll as NPCs always have to suffer the effect if it takes place.
From the mechanics we know that the target is guarded, and that the rogues have gotten past about half of the guards between them and their goal. Everything else comes from the fiction.
If you’ve already established in the fiction that there are only four guards, then some of them are still alive, or the rogues’ intel was wrong—maybe the shift change got moved for some reason.
You could also look for other things that would have the same effect as guards. Maybe the owner notices that the guard hasn’t stopped by on his rounds. Maybe a Bluecoat buddy of one of the guards stops by to share a quick nip from his flask. Maybe the dog is sleeping in front of the vault door.
John Ryan The system breaks down when you abstract it too much. As we see in this conversation. Without fictional details, it’s hard to know how to even use the rolls and tick the clocks. What’s happening? What’s left to do? How can we go about it? You need the fiction to engage with the mechanics in a meaningful way.
Here’s how I do it:
When I put the Patrols clock out on the table, I describe the first problem they encounter. “Two guards are smoking and chatting under an electric lamp, blocking the way to the kitchen entrance. What do you do?”
Then if they get 2-segments of progress, you can describe that effect in various ways, depending on how badass the guards are. Either they’re no entangled with those two guards in some kind of struggle, trying to keep them quiet and subdue them, or they take them out and run in to the next set of patrols inside the house.
Deal with what’s right in front of the scoundrels. Describe it with enough detail so the players can sensibly choose actions. Don’t worry about describing what the “whole clock” represents at first. Play in the first-person POV of the characters. What’s happening right now?
I think the biggest challenge is that one may succeed at an action but not at the overall effect. Maybe not as much for the players who can just relay on the POV presented by the GM but for the GM.
Like in the QS there’s that example where the characters successfully sneak past some guard but the “sneak success effect clock” hasn’t been filled. It states that one shouldn’t lessen the action roll or scrap the success but doesn’t explain what to do with the remaining danger of not being sneaky enough (yet).
Yeah, more examples will help. I’ll release more examples during the ks.
This bit from page 17 addresses the situation where the Patrols clock isn’t fully dealt with by an action:
You slip past the sentry near the stairs, but before you can get further into the house, another patrol rounds the corner ahead, lanterns held high. You barely squeeze into a dark alcove before the light hits you.
“What do you do?”
Action and effect are interesting because they are split. That’s common in combatdesign (roll to hit, roll to damage) but not outside of it. It strikes me that most normal rolls will be one or the other, with rolls that are pivotal to the job (or full of drama) being the ones using both. Action rolls seem to fit situations where failure means trying another avenue, while effect rolls are about succeeding before something happens.
Action roll: Pick the lock to get inside the house. If it fails, you have to try another way in.
Effect roll: Pick the lock before the guard patrol shows up. If you don’t kill the clock, not you’ve got to deal with a patrol.
Both: Pick the lock to the safe to get Lord Spurlock’s diary before sunset, when you know he’ll be out and about in his manor.
From what I understood its similar to roll to hit and roll to damage but not completly.
Like with the roll to hit you actually already do some damage and the roll for damage decides the scope.
Which is a bit confusing if I try to think how a murder would be done.
Like in the beginning scenario the characters can decide to murder Baz.
I would assume that it is a risky, maybe desperate, endavour for he is on his own ground and sure. Probably depending how the flashback moves are working out.
Then I’d assume that the effect might be a 6 or 8 part clock, for Baz is probably a rather battle proven npc.
If they now attack with the intended goal to kill him, but only manage a 2 tick effect,…
…, how do I keep the action successful but not treat the 2 ticks as if they were 4-6 ticks more?
Yes, there seems to be some nuance around getting the action and effects rolls working just right. I’d love to see some specific examples highlighting how to handle different situations. Perhaps some leading questions for the Gm on when to apply clocks would be helpful?
Is this a dramatic situation that may escalate before completion?
Is time of the essence?
What will happen if the Effect is not completed? If nothing then no Effect roll is needed.
Just thinking out loud here.
Depends on the action roll. If it’s 4/5, then Bazso is stabbed (or whatever) but he and his thugs fight back successfully, and now it’s a battle. They’re moving around, making their own attacks, dodging, wrestling, etc. The action roll isn’t about one single motion, it’s a whole moment of action.
If it’s a clean 6+, then the initial attack was smooth, Bazso is stabbed through the chest, but he’s not dead, and his thugs are surprised, staring in horror. Now what?
John Harper in your example above is there an effect roll present? If not, where are you getting the degrees of success from? Sorry if I’m missing something obvious.
Oh, sorry, Dan, I was assuming the effect roll with a 2-segment result, as Jennifer said.
So, effect roll = 4/5.
Oh ok. I see now. Thanks John 🙂
I’m gonna post some common action/effect examples. Probably tomorrow.
Cool look forward, to it. Amazing game, I just need some help grasping the system. I really struggled with DW when I first ran it.
Yeah, I hear ya. It’s especially tough now, with only a short quick start to go on. Thanks for asking questions and giving it a shot!